Don't call it nazi'ing. Hate breeds hate friend. Jian as staff you should acknowledge Kizen is making a point about censorship. See China.
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You know, and this might just be me, but did anyone else notice how this went from "no one is to blame" to "it is all Staff's fault"? Just thought the dichotomy between paragraph 1 and 2 in the OP was funny.
Post by Kizen Haetora on Aug 30, 2015 20:28:07 GMT -5
I actually said everyone was to blame and even stated why, multiple times. Then Jian tried to smooth things over and so did tokiyo and I pointed out that their mentality is why the site is the way it is. They let things slide, then get over zealous with their responses and the people creating the problems and bullying are at fault too. Everyone is at fault, that was kind of my entire point. That no one wants to accept fault.
Kizen, as your post is large and I do not wish to be accused of or worse yet guilty of cherry picking things out of your statement, I will address it by the paragraph as best I can after the first.
Now, firstly, you believe your opinion is being stifled. I can see where you are coming from with this. You posted something you believed relevant to the discussion, and had that post removed. However, this is not a case of your opinion being stifled. This is a case of something potentially disruptive being removed. The image you posted was posted without any accompanying text. In addition, the text within the image is an opinion that has already been expressed by others several times in the thread. Therefore the image was doing nothing to actively contribute to the discussion at hand. Your post was not removed to stop your opinion, an opinion already expressed by others, from being seen. Your post was removed because it was disruptive.
Second, you are right. Everyone is to blame. Myself and others have already expressed this.
Moving on to your questions. The first two have already been expressed in part or in whole over the course of the many discussions about bullying that have taken place. If you wish to review the threads in full, then you will find this to be true. I don’t have answers to the first two questions, as they are deceptively difficult to answer without calling into question anyone’s character. As for the third question, it is the squeaky wheel principle. When something huge happens, people become enthusiastic towards fixing it.
Your other posts were hidden as they too were distracting to the discussion at hand. Understandably you were confused and were looking for answers. It was remiss to not inform you immediately upon hiding your post that it was hidden and why it was done.
As for Jian’s actions towards hiding things that have the potential to derail a thread, yes, he can. Other staff can. I can, and I have. Why? Because that is the job of staff. When a serious discussion is taking place, things that have the potential to derail that discussion must be dealt with. It is not due to any bias towards the content of the post. We judge based on what we see, rather than waiting to see what, if any effect a potentially disruptive element may have. If nothing comes of it, great. But if something does, then the argument changes to ‘why didn’t staff stop this earlier’.
An argument, I might remind you, which currently sits at the very core of this whole storm of drama we currently find ourselves within.
This is not a nazi mentality as you might perceive it. This is the mentality that staff should have. It might seem new since we were remiss in possessing this mentality before, but by no means are we performing any actions that could be linked to the fascist party of germany in world war two except by the thinnest strings of logic.
Hiding your post might have impeded your ability to enjoy the community, but your post carried the possibility of doing so for others. An image with no actual word content, as I said earlier, can be disruptive to a discussion and disrupt the enjoyment of others. It’s a matter of taxes and roads. If you want us to make sure harassment or any other element which might overtly disrupt others is taken care of, then you have to live with the knowledge your own content may be seen as such.
We are here to prevent as well as to punish for impact. Today it was preventative. If tomorrow something happens that was not prevented, then we punish for the impact it had. Just because we do not know what impact your posts would make does not mean we have no clue what impact your posts could make.
We are not covering our asses, we are doing our best to prevent further disturbances. We are not zealots, we are human beings who were remiss and are trying to make up for it. We are not nazis, we are the staff of Bleach Gotei.
On a more personal note, I would very much appreciate it if you stopped referring to staff as nazis. Being part of staff myself, I find the comparison between me and the group that probably would have had me shot or put to hard labor and then shot simply for existing rather troubling.
Post by Souta Suzuki on Aug 30, 2015 20:39:44 GMT -5
Remember, 99% of internet discussion can be improved by never saying the words Nazi or Hitler.
However, 99% of internet discussions will invariably have one of them mentioned.
Kizen, calm down a bit, step back, and look at the situation again. Jian has a valid point. Pictures are usually posted as just glib, walk-away comments that do little to contribute to the conversation. If you want a picture to not look that, include some text with it. Type out further words. Talk about how fucked up it is. I dunno.
Something other than posting a solo picture.
Jian, he does have a point that his picture wasn't derailing, even if it did look glib.
And finally Souta, holy shit why are you posting here, go to work.
Post by Kizen Haetora on Aug 30, 2015 20:49:01 GMT -5
Kizen, as your post is large and I do not wish to be accused of or worse yet guilty of cherry picking things out of your statement, I will address it by the paragraph as best I can after the first.
Now, firstly, you believe your opinion is being stifled. I can see where you are coming from with this. You posted something you believed relevant to the discussion, and had that post removed. However, this is not a case of your opinion being stifled. This is a case of something potentially disruptive being removed. The image you posted was posted without any accompanying text. In addition, the text within the image is an opinion that has already been expressed by others several times in the thread. Therefore the image was doing nothing to actively contribute to the discussion at hand. Your post was not removed to stop your opinion, an opinion already expressed by others, from being seen. Your post was removed because it was disruptive.
First off, it's not really your call to decide what I do and don't contribute. It's an open discussion forum, one you moderate if there's a disruption. Me saying something that everyone else is saying is my opinon, sorry you have no right to claim what I post is any more valid or useful than anyone else. It's my opinion, everyone else got to express theirs and I have the same right as they do. It wasn't disruptive, you can't judge it as disruptive when no one else has seen it. That's again jumping the gun and wrong. It's a retarded mentality and you are wrong.
Second, you are right. Everyone is to blame. Myself and others have already expressed this.
Yes, I know this.
Moving on to your questions. The first two have already been expressed in part or in whole over the course of the many discussions about bullying that have taken place. If you wish to review the threads in full, then you will find this to be true. I don’t have answers to the first two questions, as they are deceptively difficult to answer without calling into question anyone’s character. As for the third question, it is the squeaky wheel principle. When something huge happens, people become enthusiastic towards fixing it.
It was handled too late. If the discussions were handled, Bri wouldn't have left and Colin and Naz wouldn't be annoyed that they were singled out in a post by a staff member as being people to contributed to another staff members departure. You guys are enthusiastic when it's too late, your argument is it's okay if the flame burned the building down cause we were "really" enthusiastic about spraying the hose at the house next door in the hope that it doesn't catch fire in the future.
Your other posts were hidden as they too were distracting to the discussion at hand. Understandably you were confused and were looking for answers. It was remiss to not inform you immediately upon hiding your post that it was hidden and why it was done.
Again, that's a piss poor excuse on an open discussion forum. If I posted a youtube video of a dog riding a skateboard or posted a picture of ronda rousey saying don't be a DNB. Then I could see deleting that cause it's derailing the thread, but again my picture was literally about the discussion in the thread and had relevance so once again staff was wrong.
As for Jian’s actions towards hiding things that have the potential to derail a thread, yes, he can. Other staff can. I can, and I have. Why? Because that is the job of staff. When a serious discussion is taking place, things that have the potential to derail that discussion must be dealt with. It is not due to any bias towards the content of the post. We judge based on what we see, rather than waiting to see what, if any effect a potentially disruptive element may have. If nothing comes of it, great. But if something does, then the argument changes to ‘why didn’t staff stop this earlier’.
Guess what, it was a serious discussion and my point was not any less valid than anyone else that posted in that thread. SO again, Jian was wrong to do that and staff is wrong to jump the gun and make snap decisions about posts that haven't even been seen.
An argument, I might remind you, which currently sits at the very core of this whole storm of drama we currently find ourselves within.
I know, and this mentality you guys all seem to collectively share where you think you aren't at fault till you can't make excuses for it anymore is exactly why we are in this position.
This is not a nazi mentality as you might perceive it. This is the mentality that staff should have. It might seem new since we were remiss in possessing this mentality before, but by no means are we performing any actions that could be linked to the fascist party of germany in world war two except by the thinnest strings of logic.
It is a nazi mentality, you're literally telling people what to think and how to feel. You're judging the value of someones opinion and if other people should see it or not based upon your personal feelings. Who are you to tell me what value my opinion has in an open discussion about how people feel regarding the matter? You're in no position to do so, staff or not you guys have really overstepped your bounds here.
Hiding your post might have impeded your ability to enjoy the community, but your post carried the possibility of doing so for others. An image with no actual word content, as I said earlier, can be disruptive to a discussion and disrupt the enjoyment of others. It’s a matter of taxes and roads. If you want us to make sure harassment or any other element which might overtly disrupt others is taken care of, then you have to live with the knowledge your own content may be seen as such.
Cept it isn't, people post pictures all the time and it's a lot less disruptive then calling you guys fuckups in 3-4 paragraphs. Like I said before, your logic is flawed and wrong. You should really focus this enthusiasm elsewhere and maybe if you had, we wouldn't have staff members quitting and other members trolling each other.
We are here to prevent as well as to punish for impact. Today it was preventative. If tomorrow something happens that was not prevented, then we punish for the impact it had. Just because we do not know what impact your posts would make does not mean we have no clue what impact your posts could make.
Cept you've failed to do so multiple times and continue to fail to do so. This is made obvious by bri leaving. This entire situation was caused by a combination of your inaction as staff and the community members choosing to harass people.
We are not covering our asses, we are doing our best to prevent further disturbances. We are not zealots, we are human beings who were remiss and are trying to make up for it. We are not nazis, we are the staff of Bleach Gotei.
That's exactly what you're doing and your piss poor excuses for doing so are exactly why these issues blew up the way they did.
On a more personal note, I would very much appreciate it if you stopped referring to staff as nazis. Being part of staff myself, I find the comparison between me and the group that probably would have had me shot or put to hard labor and then shot simply for existing rather troubling.
Then stop acting like you have the right to judge my opinion and stifle it on a whim, you don't know if it's gonna be disruptive and reading that image it's not. It's honest and unbiased, you just made an assumption and a mistake and then tried to hide it and now you're digging that hole even further by telling me that my opinion is not as important than others in the thread just because they're similar. Again, who are you to make that decision in an open forum where you want to hear how other people feel on the site? You're wrong, so is Jian. End of story.
You guys are enthusiastic when it's too late, your argument is it's okay if the flame burned the building down cause we were "really" enthusiastic about spraying the hose at the house next door in the hope that it doesn't catch fire in the future.
I don't know Kizen, I find it kind of hard to agree with you about Staff stifling your opinion when this whole thread has been about how you think Staff are Nazi's.
Haven't they asked you to stop calling them that like, four times now? Without hiding your posts? Which they obviously don't like?
Oh, wait. You're doing the thing everyone was upset about aren't you? What was it called again? Oh yeah!
Being a passive-aggressive, but mostly aggressive, dick to people.
Post by Kizen Haetora on Aug 30, 2015 21:14:21 GMT -5
I don't know Kizen, I find it kind of hard to agree with you about Staff stifling your opinion when this whole thread has been about how you think Staff are Nazi's.
Haven't they asked you to stop calling them that like, four times now? Without hiding your posts? Which they obviously don't like?
Oh, wait. You're doing the thing everyone was upset about aren't you? What was it called again? Oh yeah!
Being a passive-aggressive, but mostly aggressive, dick to people.
Yes, while going on about how they have every right to stifle me on a whim whenever they believe what I say is less valued than what everyone else has to say. Should I call them fascists then? Are they any less wrong because I call them a nazi? Is your argument that they aren't acting that way?
Lets see, what have they done so far?
Censored me.
Invalidated my opinion based upon their own person feelings.
Justified their actions because my own personal opinions weren't as important as others.
Ignored my complaints and even hid them when I posted them earlier.
Made excuses for their ignorant responses by claiming it's within their power to do so.
Yeah, i'd say that's pretty spot on. Not in glib or in just or in any kind of slur, it's not racism either because last I checked Germans(Commonly associated with Nazis) are an ethnicity of Caucasians. When you're actively trying to suppress someone, invalidate their opinions and brush things under the rug...is there really any other way to put it? Should I compare it to North Korea then? Cause it's the same mentality, Or perhaps Cuba? How does one make fascism politically correct?
Post by Kizen Haetora on Aug 30, 2015 21:30:11 GMT -5
Or staff is wrong, their entire mentality is wrong. None of them will admit they're wrong and even when they say sorry theymake an excuse to justify the thing they are wrong about like a child does. He did have to do it cause he was wrong, he had no right to do that and claiming that they're protecting thread integrity is an excuse I easily demolished.
Post by Kizen Haetora on Aug 30, 2015 21:45:29 GMT -5
Oh my mistake
I mean, why WOULD an Interpersonals Staff member have any right to hide a post he felt was being disruptive
Not like thats his job
Or anything
Yeah man, he's really doing his job when he claims he's doing it to stop a thread from derailing.When the picture is literally in reference the argument that is being discussed above and is unbiased and not choosing a side. He claims it's to keep the thread from being derailed, when no one else saw it and it was pertaining to what was being discussed. He had no idea, made a snap decision and was wrong about it.
The problem here is staff doing stuff and claiming it's "just doing their job" when they don't do it when it matters. That's like pulling a car over that's speeding on a highway and claiming they don't belong on the road because they may cause traffic down the line. His back up is another staff member saying my opinion isn't worth reading because it's similar to other people posting before me(Great response.). You got any more failed attempts to defend staff? Cause they're wrong and nothing you say to defend them is going to change that. Multiple people agree that post shouldn't have been hidden or touched cause it wasn't derailing anything. So quit trying to twist this into something it isn't, there is no grey area here. Jian was wrong and every attempt they've made to explain this has made it look even worse on their part. When even Colin is agreeing with me, you can't honestly believe you're in the right.
Any point you had was lost the moment you dropped the name call/comparison to a group who killed millions and affected multiple generations. Over the line, out of place, and completely uncalled for. Disappointing to see, to be frank with you.
Any of this could have been done within one of the four topics actually sprung up about this. Two members of staff who focus on IP related issues have acknowledged wrongdoing in this case now. I will grab the quotes and drop them here if I must.
Members have acknowledged they have done wrong, aware or not of their behavior being bad, and have either owned up to it completely or have apologized themselves and are looking for a way to prevent such things again.
Jian made a rookie mod mistake. I've done it, you've done it on other sites. Drop the victim act and look to making an effort at actually offering help/suggestions as to how to fix the problems currently going on or go play a game/something else instead.
This has turned into a bigger trainwreck than the other topics. Let's stop and bring it back toward something constructive instead.
Oh my mistakeI mean, why WOULD an Interpersonals Staff member have any right to hide a post he felt was being disruptiveNot like thats his jobOr anything
Yeah man, he's really doing his job when he claims he's doing it to stop a thread from derailing.When the picture is literally in reference the argument that is being discussed above and is unbiased and not choosing a side. He claims it's to keep the thread from being derailed, when no one else saw it and it was pertaining to what was being discussed. He had no idea, made a snap decision and was wrong about it.The problem here is staff doing stuff and claiming it's "just doing their job" when they don't do it when it matters. That's like pulling a car over that's speeding on a highway and claiming they don't belong on the road because they may cause traffic down the line. His back up is another staff member saying my opinion isn't worth reading because it's similar to other people posting before me(Great response.). You got any more failed attempts to defend staff? Cause they're wrong and nothing you say to defend them is going to change that. Multiple people agree that post shouldn't have been hidden or touched cause it wasn't derailing anything. So quit trying to twist this into something it isn't, there is no grey area here. Jian was wrong and every attempt they've made to explain this has made it look even worse on their part. When even Colin is agreeing with me, you can't honestly believe you're in the right.
That entire argument is based on opinion.
Your opinion, in fact.
And while I'm sure no one would disagree that your entitled to an opinion, that doesn't mean that whatever you consider right is acceptable for others.
Which is funny, as your argument seems to stem from the fact you consider staff 'Facists.'
Staff members are entitled to make choices about this stuff.
If you don't like that policy, Forums aren't for you.
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