I won't even try to deny that it's a significant chunk of GP, but while Prestige characters can use that GP to go beyond the 300 Reiatsu cap limit, they do so at a drastically increased price. It's a nice little boost, but it doesn't take you particularly far.
I certainly have some thoughts about Reiatsu pricing (I'm not so certain scaling costs are such a good idea for the 0-300 range any longer), but that's a discussion best left for another day, I feel. Let's let the new application process grow into its own and then maybe revisit Reiatsu pricing.
edit no rush on my milestone, I'm not in a hurry to get it
mitsutaka can be very understanding like that
Last Edit: Nov 2, 2015 15:30:26 GMT -5 by Knowledge
I certainly have some thoughts about Reiatsu pricing (I'm not so certain scaling costs are such a good idea for the 0-300 range any longer), but that's a discussion best left for another day, I feel. Let's let the new application process grow into its own and then maybe revisit Reiatsu pricing.
Considering Justin brought this up the other day I figured I'd throw my opinion on adjusting the 0-300 range to be one flat cost:
I dislike the idea. Reiatsu is not 1-1 scaling. A 300 Reiatsu character is not twice as strong as a 150 reiatsu character, but several times more. Making the increase from 50-60 cost the same as 290-300 when the latter increase is far more significant in terms of comparable power seems like a bad idea, and considering that 90% of players will spend their time exclusively in the 0-300 range, I don't see much benefit in streamlining it. The current approach works to reflect the nature of Reiatsu fairly well in my opinion.
Statistical comparisons suggest the opposite. We say Reiatsu scales exponentially, yet somehow the difference between 25 and 75 Speed is exactly the same as 100 and 150 Speed.
whoops.jpg
Moreover, pricing as it is now makes the amount of characters with under 100 Reiatsu vanishingly small, if not completely nonexistent--unless a player actively chooses to hamper themselves. I wrote a 2.7k app and I've got three skills at Advanced and 150 Reiatsu right out the gate. Had I elected to invest in skill ranks more befitting my stature, I would easily be at 200 or higher. As a starting point for a not-bad application, that's cutting out two thirds of the total range right from the get-go. Those Reiatsu levels simply don't happen. 200-250 Reiatsu ceases to be any kind of accomplishment whatsoever. A flat 20 GP per Reiatsu, however, forces a lower starting point (as opposed to everyone sitting in the 200-250 reiatsu range completely killing variety) and a steady rate of growth until Prestige without changing the total GP needed to hit 300. Prestige ranges (301-400 for 60 per Rei) change the game and makes it that much harder to grow, Post-Prestige ranges (upward 100 per rei for 401+) even more so. They may have a higher cap on Reiatsu than you do, but you can be damn sure they're paying a pretty penny for it. Furthermore, Prestige is nowhere near as difficult to achieve as you make it out to be.
So if by "the current approach works" you mean "the current approach trivializes what should be a significant Reiatsu level" then yes you're absolutely correct, it does. Everyone's running around at the level of a lieutenant, that's a sick nasty incentive to keep things as they are, fam.
Factor in the obvious ease of understanding for even the most mathematically challenged new members, and you've got yourself a very simple, very effective package that produces a much greater spread in Reiatsu among non-Prestige characters, which in my mind is a very good thing. Variety is, as they say, the spice of life.
0-300, 20 GP per Rei 000 Reiatsu: 0 GP 050 Reiatsu: 1,000 GP 100 Reiatsu: 2,000 GP 150 Reiatsu: 3,000 GP 200 Reiatsu: 4,000 GP 250 Reiatsu: 5,000 GP 300 Reiatsu: 6,000 GP
301-400, 40 GP per Rei 301-400, 50 GP per Rei 301-400, 60 GP per Rei 320 Reiatsu: 6,800 GP 320 Reiatsu: 7,000 GP 320 Reiatsu: 7,200 GP 340 Reiatsu: 7,600 GP 340 Reiatsu: 8,000 GP 340 Reiatsu: 8,400 GP 360 Reiatsu: 8,400 GP 360 Reiatsu: 9,000 GP 360 Reiatsu: 9,600 GP 380 Reiatsu: 9,200 GP 380 Reiatsu: 10,000 GP 380 Reiatsu: 10,800 GP 400 Reiatsu: 10,000 GP 400 Reiatsu: 11,000 GP 400 Reiatsu: 12,000 GP
Last Edit: Nov 2, 2015 17:06:14 GMT -5 by Knowledge
Post by Consequence on Nov 2, 2015 17:00:21 GMT -5
As you mentioned, best to let the changed cook down a bit before considering something so potentially impactful as changing the reiatsu pricing. There was a great deal of work and frustration the last time we did it and, simply change or not, changes do create friction.
Was just directed to this because I had missed it.
A-ah, thank you for making it easy for me to personally understand? And thank you for the change too, I think. I am always excited for something that helps out people; and this seems beneficial to everyone, new and old players alike! Cheers!
We're singing I believe that lovers should be chained together and thrown into a fire with their songs and letters, and left there to burn. Left there to burn in their arrogance.
Post by Jian Oreachi on Nov 6, 2015 1:33:27 GMT -5
1) I like the change of base 1500 for people who pass. That's A-OK
2) I'm worried about the next 1500 being earned and not base, I understand that we don't wanna kneecap peoples early milestones with high bases but my concern is 1500GP is 75000 words of earned GP, and we're handing it out on the quality of an applications and not getting into our world and universe. Since I think it's clear that people care about app GP this I'm worried this encourages an already somewhat prevalent attitude of perfectionism in the app-stage to the point of stagnation versus just getting out there and developing the character by actually playing them, something I find is generally much more effective means of getting a character moving.
3) The reward of 1500 earned versus base means a lower scoring app player used to be able to catch up with their early milestones pretty easily by fleshing out their character and getting into the world, and now presuming both players equal this is not a mountain that would be climbed? A character would be better served by going through milestones then trying to improve an application.
To sum up, I concede a lot of these points relies on my view that the application process, while useful to getting a character concept fleshed out, does not make good characters by itself at least not to the point that writing 75000 words with our great community in actual threads would. Thus, I'm against the idea of rewarding it so strongly.
What is my proposed fix? I dunno, 1500 base, drop the max GP rewarded on apps down? Not sure, just my two cents.
(Addendum, it came up in earlier discussions as to how earned GP is better than base, and it's because milestone GP gets progressively more difficult to earn and earned GP does not.)
----
Second, why was death GP lowered? Death and retirement are, in my eyes, practically the same thing in a community where PVP is basically a cooperative effort. Your character dies when you deem it appropriate for that character in question to die. As above this is largely a personal viewpoint, but I find death a much more interesting and in no way less worthy end to a character than a retirement.
If you drop the max reward on Apps people can earn even MORE GP through application by perfecting it? o.ô
Edit: Do you mean "drop" as in lowering? XD
Also, you need to remember that 99% of that characters life happened BEFORE you start roleplaying. Creating a person, shaping their personality after their life and making them the person they are now DOES take a lot of work and should be rewarded accordingly depending on how much work and effort you put into it. Creating a whole character that is interesting and has great qualities can absolutely be worth up to 1,500 GP in my opinion. And the only reason you got that far so quickly with a shitty App is because you are a postbot Some people would rather get some good skills and their 150 Reiatsu right away so they can chill out and play in the lower league without being completely useless (combat wise)
On BG you get rewarded for everything you write. Milestone GP doesn't relate to the wordcount of your threads either so why would Apps?
The difference is that retirement is a satisfactory end that must be earned, death is quite the opposite. Death is often cooperative, but it can be forced upon you. Not so with retirement.
As far as the rest goes
tbqh I've never been a fan of rewarding GP for shitposting long threads of poor writing that accomplish little or nothing but a word is a word and it's one fiftieth of a GP whether it's a good word one or a bad one. App GP at least takes us in the right direction by rewarding quality over quantity, which currently only base GP does. Your application quality should matter, because as I've said a gorillion times before, not only is your application all your partners have to work with outside what you provide in your own posts, but it's also the point of origin of the character's legacy on BG, so it must validate everything that comes after. That's worth a significant incentive to make it cohesive.
Post by Jian Oreachi on Nov 6, 2015 4:06:25 GMT -5
Many stories are held back by an inability to let a good character die, Bleach is actually a perfect example of this.
I also believe a characters story begins at the onset of play and the best characters in a roleplaying setting are born collaboratively not done in solitude and that there's only so much value you can get out of an app. How many characters change drastically from thread one and on?
This isn't about the GP as a means of gaming, but since GP is used as a means of encouraging certain things I'm just stating that I believe this encourages things I don't see as important, whether people agree or not as an entirely separate matter.
Last Edit: Nov 6, 2015 4:06:59 GMT -5 by Jian Oreachi
If you think Apps and basically stories that happened before rping started aren't important why are you playing a 2k yo character and wrote like 7000 words to tell the story of those 2k years when it and the score you get for it don't matter to you and Nanami's development lol
this ain't for the best my reputation's never been worse, so you must like me for me we can't make any promises now, can we, babe?
Post by Jian Oreachi on Nov 6, 2015 4:55:08 GMT -5
Nanami has essentially 180'd in development something like twice since I've begun actually playing her which is basically what I'm talking about.
A lot of the time spent planning and working on an app either chasing a generalized concept of a good character or the elusive bonus GP would be better spent, from a 'what will get me telling good stories or writing a good character' standpoint is by playing them.
Yeah you need a solid foundation for a good character but I think it's formed in the approvals process wholly for what you need in terms of an efficient use of time. To further the metaphor, you need a foundation, you don't need a whole house.
Last Edit: Nov 6, 2015 4:55:34 GMT -5 by Jian Oreachi
That's why it is optional now for people to get an extra grade for extra GP, right? People should always have the option to go both ways and dropping the amount of GP they can get for putting a lot of work into their character shouldn't be lowered only because there are "other ways to earn it". Some peeps like myself relate a lot to their character's history during their first milestone so giving yourself an even better fundation to work with and being able to relate to the past means to me that you thought this through and aren't halfassing things because "you can do whatever". Not that Variants have much history to work with anyways
Getting rewarded for more putting more effort into your writing doesn't look like a problem to me. Milestones reward you for your ability to tell a story. On BG you are always being judged on your ability to write and tell. Might as well start at the App so people realize the shit they write DOES matter if they want GP for it.
You can't create a system based on "grades" and expect the community not to react accordingly by trying to get the most out of it (except for the few who don't care). A milestone is just the foundation for the next milestone so one can clearly see the changes. Accordingly, the App is the foundation for the first milestone and just like with every milestone depending on how much work you put into it you can request xxx GP. I fail to see how making people want to do a better job at apps hurts their development. It's not like there's a limit.
this ain't for the best my reputation's never been worse, so you must like me for me we can't make any promises now, can we, babe?
Post by Jian Oreachi on Nov 6, 2015 5:51:57 GMT -5
It falls to the question of why we award GP, it's a means of encouraging people to do the things that grant them GP for advancement of their character. Posting keeps up activity but is pretty much the slowest form of acquisition because there isn't a quality control on word count so it's low count makes sense. Milestones are big rewards because they encourage good storytelling. As it stands the reward, the 'extra GP' for the application is one of the quickest biggest forms of GP Acquirement for a character(in the ratio of time spent to GP earned), and so it encourages an undue amount of focus on to it without a return of benefit to the community that the other forms of GP acquirement offer.
I think there's something I'm not making clear, it isn't that people shouldn't be rewarded for a good apps, good apps are definitely something to encourage. What I am trying to say is the earned GP is a huge overshadowing incentive compared to pretty much anything else on the site in-proportionate to the things we actually want to reward people for.
tl;dr apps are cool, but I don't think they're important enough to justify granting even the best of the best 1500 earned GP for them.
Last Edit: Nov 6, 2015 5:54:32 GMT -5 by Jian Oreachi
making a hella interesting character for other people to rp with and give them a potential thread partner they are curious about is something the community benefits from a lot <_<
this ain't for the best my reputation's never been worse, so you must like me for me we can't make any promises now, can we, babe?
I think there's something I'm not making clear, it isn't that people shouldn't be rewarded for a good apps, good apps are definitely something to encourage. What I am trying to say is the earned GP is a huge overshadowing incentive compared to pretty much anything else on the site in-proportionate to the things we actually want to reward people for.
Since you're now in the territory of "I feel this way", I don't have a lot I can respond with except "I don't", hence my contribution to the OP.
Player agency is a good thing, and a uniform starting point with the option to have your efforts yielding additional agency is a great way to encourage people to be bold, get into trouble, make friends, and do everything there is to do that's fun about storytelling. I think you're grossly overstating the amount of "scheming" in the average person to value Earned GP so highly and I can't think of much instance where this change 'overshadows' anything at all.
You've gotta go do threads, you've gotta go make friends, you've gotta go weave a plot. The rewards for that write themselves.
Last Edit: Nov 6, 2015 6:21:30 GMT -5 by Consequence
Post by Jian Oreachi on Nov 6, 2015 8:19:56 GMT -5
I think scheming is entirely the wrong word for what I'm suggesting take places, these are all influences, minor to major. For most I think it has little to do with the GP or power specifically and moreso to do with the idea of achieving. If it encourages people to shoot for highscores I feel the reward for achieving that is too high, and if it isn't doing that it's still a big gap. To tl;dr down again, all I'm saying is that I assume GP is the reward meant to encourage things we want people to be doing and the app is disproportional in the amount it rewards to what I feel we should be encouraging.
As you said, it really does come down to 'feeling' because I don't feel I can empirically prove that the site is better off one way or the other, a burden I think rests on both sides, I can explain my reasons and concerns and that's all I'm really aiming to do.
With regards to the retirement question: There are circumstances where I would entertain the case that a character dying is their retirement. There are some stories that only make sense to end with death, and the circumstances that make someone eligible for Prestige, or Post-Prestige, in the first place highlight that.
To be clear: This is not a case of "it makes sense that I should lose this fight, and you would therefore kill me". This is a case of the entire arc of your character culminating with a glorious, final end that would feel cheap to happen any other way.
Having said that, what Kyousuke highlights as the difference between Death and Retirement is spot on. It was lowered more as an acknowledgement for the feat of getting your character to the point of Retirement, rather than to 'cheapen' Death GP. The fact that we give it at all is pretty great relative to other situations that I've seen.
Last Edit: Nov 6, 2015 8:58:48 GMT -5 by Consequence