this is pretty awful and I should be used to it by now from you but oh well
let’s start with the OOC bits because they’re not quite as egregious
if we ignore for a moment the fact that from a practical perspective this so-called new and improved code of conduct is literally identical to the old one
and ignore that due to its vague nature it is subject to the exact same shortcomings the old one suffered
actually no let’s not ignore that, we’ll address that first:
in between the whining and the unsubstantiated claims of sexual harassment, """metagaming""" and other retardation last week and my own uncontrollable fits of laughter resulting from the above I was able to glean that what people were most upset about with the code of conduct was that it was so subjective. People wanted tangible consequences for perceived slights, and they wanted one rule for all. You’ve managed the first half of that, but dropped the ball so ridiculously hard on the second that it really doesn’t matter what you’ve got for consequences because the same problems that plagued the old system are still there—only now instead of subject to tokiyo’s whims, they’re subject to the whims of whoever happens to fill the, uh, sheriff’s (ahhahahahaha) shoes. This week, that’s murat, apparently.
Furthermore, I can tell you don’t really believe in this system at all yourself; this is at best appeasement and at worst an attempt to lure back a few of the people who jumped ship because clicks are clicks. You have precisely zero faith in what you’ve devised (perhaps rightfully so but time will tell). What you’ve got here doesn’t really hold up to scrutiny and the same reason people will go "oh yeah I like this much better" is the same reason history on BG is cyclical: people don’t actually think ahead on BG. It is a place that is pervaded by a goldfishlike "oh, shiny!" mentality. You wave some tinsel in front of them and all is well—until it’s not and then suddenly all the input you received is thrown out the window. This exact same thing has happened to the CoC, to applications and to mechanics like a million fucking times and none of you ever learn.
Thankfully, I’m capable of actually thinking ahead.
Let’s look at the actual "rules" such as they are:
1.) There is never a reason to directly insult a fellow player. Jokes are fine, and criticism of behavior and writing is also fine, but there comes a time when you’re simply attacking someone for the sake of it—and that has no place here. If you’re uncertain of where the line is, simply don’t approach it at all. [1 Point] Vague. Nebulous. Completely useless. Who determines what is and isn’t insulting? Ezekiel frequently made it his business to be offended on behalf of others if his post reporting statistics are any indication. If someone insults me, I usually laugh at them and move on with my life. I think rather than the average user being "uncertain of where the line is", it’s you who have literally no idea how to codify this, which means we’re back to the same old shit we had with Robert and Salmon’s trigger-happy selective enforcement of loosely formulated """rules"""
2.) Harassment, defined as consistent and direct attempts to bother or otherwise impede the experience of another player on Bleach Gotei is unacceptable. [3 Points] ??????? what even is this
when does it stop being "insults" and become "harassment"? reading shunposting is a serious impediment of my enjoyment of BG but I’m not about to call it harassment
3.) Plagiarism of any sort, including from other work for use on Bleach Gotei and plagiarism of the work on Bleach Gotei, is unacceptable. [5 Points] I’m one of the few people on BG who this has literally happened to and I’m absolutely flabbergasted why this is in here at all let alone worth five points
4.) Engaging in explicit sexual content with a minor via Bleach Gotei is also completely unacceptable, as are all forms of sexual harassment—consistent, unwanted sexual advances of any nature—that may take place. There’s simply no purpose for this on an online Bleach RP forum, and we’re certain you’ll agree. [7 Points] unsure why the first bit is even here when the rule should literally just be "don’t sexually harass people on BG, end of story"
it’s the in-character bits that are really fucking whack though and seriously make me wonder what the fuck you were thinking
like, you start off strong with "hey no lewdposting with characters under 18", I suppose it’s an arbitrary stand to take but at least it’s pretty clear: if you do this thing that we told you not to do, the posts will be removed immediately
then you completely lose it with the actual rules:
1 and 3 are both completely retarded and while I laughed long and hard at the fact that people were happy to imply or outright state that I """metagame""" during my vacation, nobody was able to provide any examples. Luckily, I’m not the kind to make wild accusations and can instead point to clear-as-day three examples (in total, not each) of other people breaking these two
2 has no business even existing, some people get butthurt about what happens in-character and it’s really not your place to tell them they can’t be. that’s what you have the OOC rules 1 and 2 for (or would, if they meant anything).
what in the actual fuck is rule 4
literally nobody has ever done this on BG and nobody ever will; this is the exact same thing as the "no lewdposts under 18" bit: if you do it, don’t be surprised if your post suddenly and inexplicably disappears. that’s not a code of conduct rule, that’s a retirement rule.
I mean I’ve seen you produce some pretty awful tripe that I’ve had to fix for you over the years justin but this may just take the cake
it’s like you’ve taken the old CoC, arbitrarily assigned some numbers and then hoped nobody would actually read it carefully
I haven't verified this myself, but I heard there was even shit as recently as him threatening to bring in Hazumi to deal with people who don't like Otto. Nothing forces you to pay attention like a "If you ignore or go against my my prestige level Shinigami gon' attack you." statement.
Post by Shun Minamoto on Feb 9, 2017 10:20:48 GMT -5
For those wondering, yes, I did let Kyousuke post in here because he is a member of Bleach Gotei and this is exactly the sort of feedback I was looking for. "This looks good" is all well and great, but a more critical assessment is much more valuable.
I can absolutely tighten up the language, because you're right, I just lifted the old Code of Conduct and applied a point system to it. I also don't believe in it at all. Personally, I don't believe we need any Code of Conduct -- words can't hurt you, and all that -- but that isn't ideal for a larger community like this, and I recognize that. Anything other than this will not be something I personally believe in, and making something that I do simply isn't the goal and probably isn't best for the community. My personal preferences couldn't be less relevant to this discussion, in light of that.
So, first, about the lewdposting sub-18: There's only one situation in which forums.net will interfere with our board, and that's it. That and actual, graphic child porn. So that's a flat no-go.
Which leaves the following questions for everyone.
Regarding out-of-character behavior: What should be in here? Only things that can be objectively pointed at, or things that require human judgment? Requiring human judgment will mean things need to be decided by someone.
Regarding in-character behavior: What should be here? My first instinct was to list certain things without actually assigning point values to the very things Kyousuke pointed out, such as metagaming (how do you prove this?) and taking in-character events into out-of-character drama (again, how do you demonstrate or prove it? It's human nature, it'll always happen). So, what should be in here?
To get the ball rolling, I created this and explicitly called it a draft. So far, Kyousuke is the only one to give me an actual feedback, and I'd like some more. What do people think, what would you include, and why?
Last Edit: Feb 9, 2017 10:26:25 GMT -5 by Shun Minamoto
"3 Points: A verbal warning and a reminder that these behaviors we do enforce are what we feel are the basics required for people to coexist on Bleach Gotei."
I can tell you right now that the in-character half of this nu-CoC shouldn't exist, period
there is literally nothing in there that that needs to remain that isn't simply addressed by "there's no in-character censorship on BG with the exception that there's no lewdposting for under-18 characters due to fuzzy legal interpretations of child pornography" and clarifying the "btw when you retire you forgo the ability to influence other characters without their consent" in the retirement rules
the plagiarism shit is a complete joke, if anything it's something we strongly discourage but really what's stopping people
there's something about all this that reminds me of the OP for tokiyo's community outreach program for people who don't have original ideas or solutions to problems but still want to be part of the decisionmaking process on BG
"I don't want to hear looks good, I want fresh eyes and viable alternatives"
except here I'm left with the distinct impression that looks good is exactly what you were hoping people would say
Last Edit: Feb 9, 2017 10:33:05 GMT -5 by Otto Berg
I haven't verified this myself, but I heard there was even shit as recently as him threatening to bring in Hazumi to deal with people who don't like Otto. Nothing forces you to pay attention like a "If you ignore or go against my my prestige level Shinigami gon' attack you." statement.
Yikes, nice to know only one person's thoughts matter.
On the metagaming, I can only say screenshots, but no one and their mother wants to save up screenshotting and going to staff members in fear of being punished themselves. There's a reason I left (and hey who cares to get my side, right?) and best we have someone like Murat we can go to and maybe get some PR talk or one-to- one thing to lessen matters.
On the whole lewding thing *looks at her chara, yikes again) that should be a consensual thing between parties and yes, nothing anything below child levels. If it's a problem then it can be reported and a lil communication doesn't hurt.
That's my two pennies, dunno why I'm still posting.
I haven't verified this myself, but I heard there was even shit as recently as him threatening to bring in Hazumi to deal with people who don't like Otto. Nothing forces you to pay attention like a "If you ignore or go against my my prestige level Shinigami gon' attack you." statement.
"3 Points: A verbal warning and a reminder that these behaviors we do enforce are what we feel are the basics required for people to coexist on Bleach Gotei."
can this be reworded
I didn't mean to diminish that, was not at all what I was going for and I'm sory about that; but I also think you can see the divide between asking me to reword something and what Kyousuke provided.
I will be doing that, though, so thank you, Ai!
Last Edit: Feb 9, 2017 10:53:56 GMT -5 by Shun Minamoto
Using OOC knowledge of events/characters to react IC, or otherwise using/reacting IC with material your character shouldn't know. Like another character's internal monologue, or something.
Yikes, nice to know only one person's thoughts matter.
On the metagaming, I can only say screenshots, but no one and their mother wants to save up screenshotting and going to staff members in fear of being punished themselves. There's a reason I left (and hey who cares to get my side, right?) and best we have someone like Murat we can go to and maybe get some PR talk or one-to- one thing to lessen matters.
On the whole lewding thing *looks at her chara, yikes again) that should be a consensual thing between parties and yes, nothing anything below child levels. If it's a problem then it can be reported and a lil communication doesn't hurt.
That's my two pennies, dunno why I'm still posting.
That's why I'm asking. Something more like this, Freyleif, is exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for, and I appreciate it.
I can assure you that, whether you believe me or not, Murat here is never going to punish anyone for bringing their concerns to him. Which is exactly why I've put someone else in charge of that. If you don't trust Murat, of all people, well, I'd welcome to hear why. He seems like a pretty solid dude for this sort of work.
And yes, I don't care if you write smut all day every day on Bleach Gotei, doesn't bother me a bit. The only issue is, well, the law and its contents regarding people and characters under 18, and how it is interpreted and applied.
Last Edit: Feb 9, 2017 10:56:23 GMT -5 by Shun Minamoto
I haven't verified this myself, but I heard there was even shit as recently as him threatening to bring in Hazumi to deal with people who don't like Otto. Nothing forces you to pay attention like a "If you ignore or go against my my prestige level Shinigami gon' attack you." statement.
I can assure you that, whether you believe me or not, Murat here is never going to punish anyone for bringing their concerns to him. Which is exactly why I've put someone else in charge of that. If you don't trust Murat, of all people, well, I'd welcome to hear why. He seems like a pretty solid dude for this sort of work.
hey, remember colin?
jemukatashi?
shiki?
robert?
salmon?
I do! I'm sure someone, somewhere, has called them "pretty solid dudes" at some point. In fact, some of those may in fact have been you.
Shit, even I'm supposed to be on that list somewhere.
Last Edit: Feb 9, 2017 10:59:11 GMT -5 by Otto Berg
I haven't verified this myself, but I heard there was even shit as recently as him threatening to bring in Hazumi to deal with people who don't like Otto. Nothing forces you to pay attention like a "If you ignore or go against my my prestige level Shinigami gon' attack you." statement.
Post by Shun Minamoto on Feb 9, 2017 10:59:51 GMT -5
We have had, over the years, people handling this sort of work -- directly or indirectly -- that haven't done a good job.
We've also had Tokiyo. And when he was in charge of this sort of thing, I think it's pretty universally held that he did a great job.
I have no reason to doubt Murat's ability, far from it. Everything I've seen from him says that he's the kind of level-headed, clear-sighted person necessary for this.
EDIT The only one on your list that I ever endorsed for a similar role was Jemukatashi, actually.
Last Edit: Feb 9, 2017 11:02:41 GMT -5 by Shun Minamoto
I haven't verified this myself, but I heard there was even shit as recently as him threatening to bring in Hazumi to deal with people who don't like Otto. Nothing forces you to pay attention like a "If you ignore or go against my my prestige level Shinigami gon' attack you." statement.
Post by Shun Minamoto on Feb 9, 2017 11:04:59 GMT -5
And I'm sure Murat, in the course of doing the best job he can do, is going to upset someone in the future. It's inevitable. And they'll do everything they can to kick him in the shins for just trying to do his best.
Yet, I still think he can do a great job with this, for as long as he chooses to do it.
EDIT Hey, volunteers are tough to find. All I can do is try to find and keep the best people willing to help out!
Last Edit: Feb 9, 2017 11:06:20 GMT -5 by Shun Minamoto
Did you have any particular suggestions, or anything more specific that you wanted? I'd like to keep them in kind as we collect more feedback about the Code as a whole.
excuse u for the most part, Canadians are great okay
I've met precisely two canadians I liked, both were cute quebecois girls
it seems like the only part of the country that's worth anything but then I live in sweden which amounts to a big fucking shitheap covered in snow so what the fuck would I know
I haven't verified this myself, but I heard there was even shit as recently as him threatening to bring in Hazumi to deal with people who don't like Otto. Nothing forces you to pay attention like a "If you ignore or go against my my prestige level Shinigami gon' attack you." statement.
Post by Murat Pasha on Feb 9, 2017 11:15:52 GMT -5
I'm dealing with a bit of a severe backlog at work right now, the byproduct of taking 2 sick days to recover from an illness. As a result, can't really talk at length here at the moment, but I would like to note that I have deputized Mr. Jin here to assist with IP matters and assert that both he and I will do what we can to apply whatever we come up with in this discussion as the Code of Conduct evenly across the board.
As I said, more thoughts likely coming later, though later might be further out than I like with the size of this backlog and the fact that my missus has seemingly caught the same illness that I had the other day. I hope to see least have something up tonight.
Edit-Keep discussing, yo.
Last Edit: Feb 9, 2017 11:44:51 GMT -5 by Murat Pasha
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