Post by Amou Daichi on Feb 10, 2017 6:07:20 GMT -5
First things first, I figure I should get this out of the way: THIS IS A HOBBY PEOPLE. Sorry, its just I'm getting even more stressed than people are acting just from reading these back and forth discussions. We come here to write. Not bitch about how we don't like the way staff do things. Not everyone is going to be happy, but somebody needs to do it. It shouldn't be that serious. You are here cause you like the community! If you no longer like it, then what are you doing here? I believe Tokiyo even said as much, but you guys misinterpreted it as "We aren't doing anything, so you can just leave if you want." That is not what this means. It means that staff will try to do something, but if you still don't like how staff are doing things, then this place must not be for you, so its probably best that you leave. Common decency people-when did we lose it in some stupid bureaucracy? We have enough of that in real life, lets not bring it into a story writing site. Heck, I personally agreed with Tokiyo's case by case basis for an RP site, it was really working well...I mean, could you see anything actually going wrong with the site? No. The only problems were drama happening in the background that have less to do with BG and more to do with people being people. But it seems that for better or for worse, we are revising the CoC, so I am going to throw in my opinion for anyone who has made it this far through my little speech (Seriously, you deserve a medal.)
First, I will make like Hazuki and go through the rules one by one. I personally don't like the way they openly insulted the system, seeing as it will only spread negativity which we don't need here, but credit given where its due-they know how to set out an argument.
OOC
Rule 1- This at first seems good, however it is, as previously pointed out, too vague. You should be more confident about your own judgement. If I were making it, I would say something like this: "Insults and harassment have no place on BG. If someone is offended by something you have said, and can provide sufficient evidence to show what it was (i.e. A screen shot), then the accused will immediately get 1 point, regardless of intentions." This might seem cruel at first, but it is actually a blessing in disguise. You see, if we go back to your system, what is the response to 1 point? A warning. And this works great if the insult was intentional or not-if it was intentional, the rule breaker will get what they deserve. If not? Then the person wasn't aware that they were doing something wrong, and this warning will help make them aware of it in order for them to change their behavior in the future. This is the best result for everyone, in my opinion, regardless of whether the person 'deserves it' or not.
Rule 2- I believe I covered this in the last one. If it is consistent, they will have racked up 3 point from the previous rule in the first place-no need for a second one.
Rule 3- To be honest, I don't completely get the whole plagiarism problem in RP sites. If they are unimaginative, their story will suffer for it, right? So they will naturally get their just desserts. However, seeing as this is a problem, let me define a system for deciding if its plagiarism or not: 1. Copy a paragraph. 2. Paste it on google. 3. If something comes up that is directly the same, it plagiarism. Helps if you put quotation marks around it on google. 4. Repeat for each paragraph.
Sounds long and arduous, but if you do it properly it should just take a minute or two. And so now you found some plagiarism, what do you do? Most would say ban or punish them, but I think there is a more fitting solution for a site like this-this is a site that rewards good writing. So if you plagiarize? No reward for that bit of the writing. If its in the app, they get now points for that part of the app, and if its in a post then they get the plagiarized part subtracted from their word count. I think that will motivate them to be more imaginative, don't you?
Rule 4- We should just make sexual harassment a no go. Like before, if you have been accused with some substantial evidence to prove it, you should get points. And if you post with minors, whether they be real life or IC- anything illegal shouldn't be on the site. In fact, we should probably make that a rule in itself-anything that causes legal issues in the real word gives grounds for a perma-ban. Note this is the only area that I even mention a perma-ban. This is the only part of your OOC rules that I think could ever constitute a permanent ban, although there is one other area I think does gives grounds as well. (Which is why I personally don't get why people want Kyou permabanned, the things he does are minimal childs play at worst. Really people.)
IC rules
Rule 1- This is a start, but you fail to cover the main issue here. This rule should be "You are not allowed to do anything to a players character, or know anything about them, that they do not approve of beforehand. This rule does not apply if mechanics are involved, unless it involves character death. CHARACTER DEATH IS NEVER ALLOWED WITHOUT A PERSONS PERMISSION." This is a nice rule that prevents metagaming, character killing, and godmoding all in one. At least, unless I somehow messed up and left something out.
Rule 2-This rule is nice and all, but as Kyou said- it shouldn't be necessary as this is already covered in the OOC rules, and also common sense.
Rule 3- This rule sen=ems fine enough, although the way you talk about it makes it sound too nice, which isn't very good in a set of rules to keep people in line. (This is actually a regular problem in these rules, although given the context, I guess it makes sense that you would talk to people like this.)
Rule 4- This can be covered in rule 1.
And lastly, whilst I approve of a points system, there needs to be a reliable way to remove these points-like a time limit. Lets say 1 point takes two weeks. Then you get a second point. This should increase exponentially, so the second point should take, say, 4 weeks. Then to get the first one off after that it takes the same two weeks. Then 6 weeks for the 3rd, eight for the 4th, ect. Of course, this doesn't have to be the numbers or the system, but it is an example of what you could do. And this summarizes my opinion on the matter.
And I will close this out by pointing out the irony that I started out talking about being too serious, then I practically wrote an essay on the rules of the site. Let the memes begin.
Post by Kasumi Shinoda on Feb 10, 2017 8:36:09 GMT -5
Not to be negative about it all, but I would like to be realistic here. I don't think this or some other CoC will work the way people 'really' want them to work (aka keep only them happy) simply because people are different.
Rule 1- This at first seems good, however it is, as previously pointed out, too vague. You should be more confident about your own judgement. If I were making it, I would say something like this: "Insults and harassment have no place on BG. If someone is offended by something you have said, and can provide sufficient evidence to show what it was (i.e. A screen shot), then the accused will immediately get 1 point, regardless of intentions." This might seem cruel at first, but it is actually a blessing in disguise. You see, if we go back to your system, what is the response to 1 point? A warning. And this works great if the insult was intentional or not-if it was intentional, the rule breaker will get what they deserve.
*If not? Then the person wasn't aware that they were doing something wrong, and this warning will help make them aware of it in order for them to change their behavior in the future. This is the best result for everyone, in my opinion, regardless of whether the person 'deserves it' or not.
1. If I call Mika a 'granny' to mess with her, and she's fine with it, but Shigure calls me the same thing and I'm upset? How should he know that I would get upset (especially if he's read me saying something similar to another person)? Will the word 'granny' be put on some list "what not to call people/ address them as"?
People get offended for various reasons. Basically, (think that someone's said this before) where is the line?
2. For 'harassment' I would rather put something like: "You can't disclose personal information about fellow players (like their real name/ phone number/ address) on the forum, you know, things that could actually get some creep to annoy them in real life by stalking them or some bs like that.
3. If someone's c&p's a whole topic/ app > just delete it? (If you find out, going through every post etc seems insane and unnecessary.)
4. This, keep this > "No sexual shenanigans with minors allowed."
*If not guilty let's put people in jail anyway? What?
Rule 1- This is a start, but you fail to cover the main issue here. This rule should be "You are not allowed to do anything to a players character, or know anything about them, that they do not approve of beforehand. This rule does not apply if mechanics are involved, unless it involves character death. CHARACTER DEATH IS NEVER ALLOWED WITHOUT A PERSONS PERMISSION." This is a nice rule that prevents metagaming, character killing, and godmoding all in one. At least, unless I somehow messed up and left something out.
People don't need to "approve" of my character knowing something about their character/ theirs knowing something about mine if it makes sense. Examples: - If Kiriko IC told Shun that Kasumi hugged her, and Shun was never present when it happened, he can still tell Tokiyo or Shinpei that Kasumi hugs Kiriko if he wants to, because it makes sense. - If Kasumi's heard about Shinkiro being a Vaizard from Cheshire because the latter watched him lose control, and she confronts him with that > he can either lie or admit it.
Summary: It's legit to know things about others because we roleplay and interact with those they might have interacted with. Tbh, in 90% of the cases one can find a legit reason to be where your char is/ do what he/she's doing etc. All you have to do is know your char and how they behave/ keep track of the shit you've already done/ people you've met/ information you've gathered or have access to.
I think that I could continue rambling on, but whoever is reading this is probably getting the point by now.
Summary II Rules: - No sexual interactions with minors are allowed/ sending unwanted dick pics to adults probably shouldn't be a thing either. - Don't disclose personal info about people - unless they do it themselves (pics, phone numbers, their uni/ city, etc) - Act IC, make sure to back it up IC.
Last Edit: Feb 10, 2017 8:37:53 GMT -5 by Kasumi Shinoda
Post by Amou Daichi on Feb 10, 2017 10:21:28 GMT -5
Well...you raise some valid points about what I said Kasumi, I will mention that it was my opinion on things and I was not claiming that I got everything right. I would like to point out that, at least in the point where I first mentioned it, the only punishment was a verbal warning which I think is good for people whether it is intentional or not. It helps people realise that they are offending someone, and gives them the opportunity to change that-though I do also see your point that it would be somewhat biased to the 'victim'. But then, if you don't say that then it immediately becomes more difficult to decide, as you put it, "Where to draw the line?". You either make a system which is very brutal, a highly convoluted that makes a huge list of things you can and cannot do, or you do it like Tokiyo and have a case by case basis. The worst of the three is actually the middle one. It is more difficult for staff to make, more difficult for the players to use, and it still can't cover everything. Like I said, I personally think the Tokiyo system was the best thing for a rp, but people rejected that, so now I was giving advice on how I think it could be improved. As for your second point on what I said, what I meant and what you said don't actually conflict, but I believe I just worded it poorly. I won't go explain, because I think you also summed it up well. So in other words, good critic of what I said, though I still say that I brought up some good points and that the real answer is probably a balance of what everyone has said so far-it always is.
Post by Murat Pasha on Feb 10, 2017 10:44:26 GMT -5
Still been busy dealing with a sick missus and a backlog, but I wanted to take a brief moment to weigh in on one big thing here: metagaming. It isn't always a bad thing. If someone "reverse" metagames in order to deliberately help another player's plot, this should - in my mind - be heavily encouraged. It's one thing to say "Ha ha! I'm going to stop your character concept from being viable because I don't like you!" and quite another to say "I'm going to put myself at a storytelling disadvantage in order to help you advance your plot."
Any degree of collaborative writing is going to have metagaming. It can't not if it's going to work. In order to further someone else's plot, at some point, you're going to need to have your character do something a little abnormal or at least against their best interests. It's when you take that OOC knowledge and use it to actively prevent other characters from doing things that it becomes an issue. It's one thing to have consequences. It's another to outright kill any plots you don't like.
I'm saying this looking at things going forward, not as any kind of analysis on recent events. I do not want to rehash the drama of the last 1-2 weeks here and instead wish to look forward. I'd write more on the matter, but I've got a string of meetings kicking off soon and I really need to get to them.
As Kas said, an anti-doxxing rule would be good to implement. Obviously people are free to offer up whatever information they want, but nobody should ever have to fear negative real life consequences from participating here. And yes, fucking children is bad, be they underage IC or OOC. Please don't fuck children.
I will also note that, even if I disagree with a rule that comes out of this discussion, I will enforce it to the utmost of my ability. Well, unless we did away with the no sex with children rule or didn't have something in place to say no in some way to off-site harassment. If that happened, then I'd immediately resign and quit the site.
Last Edit: Feb 10, 2017 10:58:55 GMT -5 by Murat Pasha
It's one thing to say "Ha ha! I'm going to stop your character concept from being viable because I don't like you!" and quite another to say "I'm going to put myself at a storytelling disadvantage in order to help you advance your plot."
It's when you take that OOC knowledge and use it to actively prevent other characters from doing things that it becomes an issue. It's one thing to have consequences. It's another to outright kill any plots you don't like.
Well, unless we did away with the no sex with children rule or didn't have something in place to say no in some way to off-site harassment. If that happened, then I'd immediately resign and quit the site.
These rules apply to all of Bleach Gotei, including the public forum, PMs, and our Discord server. Private Discord conversations are outside of the jurisdiction of Bleach Gotei, as are other sorts of conversations, such as voice chat (outside our server), alternative IM services, etc.
I haven't verified this myself, but I heard there was even shit as recently as him threatening to bring in Hazumi to deal with people who don't like Otto. Nothing forces you to pay attention like a "If you ignore or go against my my prestige level Shinigami gon' attack you." statement.
Post by Murat Pasha on Feb 10, 2017 11:33:48 GMT -5
I'm not advocating for a specific solution at the moment. Like I said, busy with work. To be blunt, I also don't think me arguing heavily one way or the other will be too terribly productive for the actual enforcement of any of the rules that come from this discussion. My position will be to enforce the rules, whatever they may be. Any disagreements I air here could stand to taint potential future judgements.
I want to see more ideas from users on these matters. I don't even necessarily know if it needs to be codified formally or if an informal "don't be an asshole, guys" would suffice.
I'm mostly talking about real life harassment, like if someone doxxed another user and did something to come after them in person. That kind of shit is unacceptable. If it ends up being the official position that "hey, go ahead and fuck with people in real life" then yeah, I'm out. I think most people with professional lives to take care of would be.
As I said, I mostly see my role in this discussion as the future enforcer for the rules we decide upon here. I'm not going to take too many strong personal opinions aside from no fucking children and don't be the kind of cunt who takes disagreements on a fucking forum into real life. No, we can't police your private messages off-site, but I'm not going to put my name on anything that would encourage harassment which risks endangering someone's personal safety or livelihood. I think these are two common sense positions we should all be able to agree on.
Last Edit: Feb 10, 2017 12:19:15 GMT -5 by Murat Pasha
Post by Kasumi Shinoda on Feb 10, 2017 12:30:09 GMT -5
What I was trying to say there is: imagine me posting personal info on person X because they've called me an 'asshole' OOC or kicked Kasumi in the shin IC > that would need to be deleted etc
If I would, for example, find out where Kyou lives and knock on his door with an axe, well, I think he would need to call the cops because banning me from BG wouldn't really help him there. (How BG can help here is: delete his address if it's posted without him wanting it to be)
Still been busy dealing with a sick missus and a backlog, but I wanted to take a brief moment to weigh in on one big thing here: metagaming. It isn't always a bad thing. If someone "reverse" metagames in order to deliberately help another player's plot, this should - in my mind - be heavily encouraged. It's one thing to say "Ha ha! I'm going to stop your character concept from being viable because I don't like you!" and quite another to say "I'm going to put myself at a storytelling disadvantage in order to help you advance your plot."
Any degree of collaborative writing is going to have metagaming. It can't not if it's going to work. In order to further someone else's plot, at some point, you're going to need to have your character do something a little abnormal. It's when you take that OOC knowledge and use it to actively prevent other characters from doing things that it becomes an issue.
I feel like I'm either misunderstanding you here or disagreeing with you, so I'll just throw this out there.
From this "In order to further someone else's plot, at some point, you're going to need to have your character do something a little abnormal" I get the idea that it's expected from people to act OOC for others instead of do what their character would normally do.
I agree that you can stretch the character's behavior to a certain level,
Example: Naz eating Kasumi's arm instead of killing her; he could have, he didn't, blabla story. but Maya and Robert killing that one Arrancar in the Rukongai > didn't really further the Arrancars story but was still legit IC.
Basically, you should be able to help people with furthering their plots by acting OOC/ adjusting some of your char's 'habits'/ talking things out if possible, but you shouldn't be forced into having to do it if it doesn't make sense for your character.
I haven't verified this myself, but I heard there was even shit as recently as him threatening to bring in Hazumi to deal with people who don't like Otto. Nothing forces you to pay attention like a "If you ignore or go against my my prestige level Shinigami gon' attack you." statement.
It's one thing to say "Ha ha! I'm going to stop your character concept from being viable because I don't like you!" and quite another to say "I'm going to put myself at a storytelling disadvantage in order to help you advance your plot."
It's when you take that OOC knowledge and use it to actively prevent other characters from doing things that it becomes an issue. It's one thing to have consequences. It's another to outright kill any plots you don't like.
Well, unless we did away with the no sex with children rule or didn't have something in place to say no in some way to off-site harassment. If that happened, then I'd immediately resign and quit the site.
These rules apply to all of Bleach Gotei, including the public forum, PMs, and our Discord server. Private Discord conversations are outside of the jurisdiction of Bleach Gotei, as are other sorts of conversations, such as voice chat (outside our server), alternative IM services, etc.
rip you I guess
Hey Kyou, you asked for proof of the first one, right? Here you go!
I haven't verified this myself, but I heard there was even shit as recently as him threatening to bring in Hazumi to deal with people who don't like Otto. Nothing forces you to pay attention like a "If you ignore or go against my my prestige level Shinigami gon' attack you." statement.
I mean, from what Robert told me, his goal for that thread was to go prestige. There was a plan...
And then hazuki came in, thread invaded, and fucked everything up for him. Mind you, I still like you and your characters but... I aint so sure about robert. His situation feels a little like the embodiment of Murat's statement.
you mean the event to which all officers of the gotei were specifically invited?
the one that multiple people told robert having in public like that was a horrible idea but in his bizarre quest to impress brianna by emulating justin he insisted on conducting in an open and public manner?
the thread which contains the following in the very first post?
Just to be absolutely certain, though, Shun had dispatched a private courier. It had told Robert of the event and, as a Lieutenant, personally invited him. Shun had sent a similar invite to all of the other Lieutenants, while Tokiyo invited the other Captains, but the one for Robert? That one, Shun signed by hand.
also I can assure you the only person who fucked up robert's prestige attempt was robert himself
perhaps you're confused and actually mean this post
Last Edit: Feb 10, 2017 12:48:32 GMT -5 by Otto Berg
I haven't verified this myself, but I heard there was even shit as recently as him threatening to bring in Hazumi to deal with people who don't like Otto. Nothing forces you to pay attention like a "If you ignore or go against my my prestige level Shinigami gon' attack you." statement.
Post by Murat Pasha on Feb 10, 2017 13:30:00 GMT -5
I think we agree on both topics as you presented them, Kas. I'm just being very brief because I'm on my phone and am posting while running between meetings.
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