Post by Nazomi on Oct 4, 2015 14:41:19 GMT -5
To begin with, this is all suggestion. This is based on having worked various systems and as far as I can come to; the best solution for what is desired. Following that, when I have seen it mentioned that the mechanical system brought several members to the site and that we're lacking a clear mechanical resolution system for when people don't agree then not only does it grate my nerves but also prompts this atmosphere of power playing and with that comes its own problems.
You cannot have half a system or the system you do have is explicitly for measuring your dick size. It resolves nothing for when it is necessary and remains bland and functionless for people that do enjoy that sort of thing.
You can say to me "But the stats still do something!" Yes. They do. In the most basic way when they are used or need to be used the situation that it entails will either be:
A: A player with a clear statistical advantage using it to curb stomp another player
B: Two people near equivalent in statistics and skill rank bitch slapping each other for far too long.
Neither of these things are really acceptable as far as having a system goes. It may exist to an extent, but not in areas where players are supposed to be in the same combat range. You should not be able to continually drive the nail home into someone because you have an advantage of 20 in a stat. Nor is having an arms race of either statistical or tier boosting, This was a flaw in the previous system that no one was certain on how to approach because to rip out a mechanical effect such as boosting would mean reorganizing the rest of the system that was built around it to maintain not only those things but everything else for fair game play when and if it must be used.
So before I really get into the meat of this I want to make few things explicitly clear, if I may.
This is not a topic for laying blame.
This is not a topic to go into Quarantine. Players should not only see this so they are aware of it, but so they can respond easily.
This is a topic for members to discuss, ask questions, and have input. It is a spring board I hope will kick off actual discussion. I only ask if you disagree with myself or any one else you at least explain your reasoning. Not doing so contributes nothing at all besides railroading this into the usual stupidity.
This is not a topic for bickering for several pages about inane bullshit.
No I'm not saying the system must be mandatory. It never was previously, it shouldn't be now. The only case where it was anywhere close to that involved IC powers of position that could be fought for. Even then it was only required for GP expenditure on stats and skill distribution to be updated.
Whatever system does result, as the staff were looking to replace it before, should be applied fairly. That is and should always be an end goal. That is to say that if a player does decide to use it then the mechanics should be fair as it would be to any other player. You make an exception based for one player you should have a reason for doing so and that reason should be explained if presented again, whether it exists because of a set of circumstances unique to that player or in allowing another player to do the same.
If used no one, absolutely no one should be provided any special treatment in this regard. They do not get to say "well if my opponent agrees!" or "I can just put it in my meta topic and you have no right to do anything about it". Those are both bullshit and childish responses. If you intend to make use of it then you should do so legitimately or not at all.
And to clarify I'm not talking when two people are aware of what they're doing and bend things to have a greater story impact (seems moot to use mechanics then but it's whatever). I'm speaking specifically to broken or obviously non-signed off on mechanics where one side is forcing it rather than adhering to the rules as everyone else does. Taking advantage of someone who doesn't know how the mechanical system works to get your way amounts to the same. Ignorance does not make bent and broken things ok.
Doing whatever in RP is not the same as having structured mechanics for legitimate mechanical combat. And before the old chestnut of "player agreement trumps mechanics" comes out, keep in mind mechanics are there to resolve things when players DON'T agree. If that's your concern you shouldn't be using mechanics, not trying to use it to justify why yours should be allowed to do things that otherwise would not be allowed.
I'm asking that staff make it a point to hide posts that contribute to this usual clusterfuck and step in if bickering starts.
And for reference, if a mod would grab the HTML dump of the old system that was thrown up as an "option", I would appreciate it if only so people have something to reference in what I'm talking about.
The Problem as Is
Flawed Stat System.
Having Spirit and Strength is a redundancy. What this does is promote stat min-maxing because you will only ever really focus in one attack stat. This is not a "but people are liable to do anything!" situation, this is a "people are prone to doing exactly this when numbers are in play."
Furthermore, it negates the premise in Bleach that spiritual power and physical power are intertwined on a deep level. You're shooting a basic premise in the foot for no reason really. To toss on top of that an actual mechanical reason, you're promoting situations where if a person's abilities or powers fall into the range of "I can entirely block or negate X type of attack", which is a legitimate approach in this setting, then the other player has no offensive means whatsoever.
It also minimizes the number of actual builds available to players. You're more or less assuring that most people will use Spirit as their primary attack, and either speed/defense as their secondary. Few people will extend into a third for even flavor reasons. So you've reduced the number of viable builds/variables in character strength/ability to an extremely small number.
What I Would Suggest:
The previous system which was:
Power: - The actual strength of an attack brought to bear and what damage checks relied on.
Precision: -Which, regardless of ideas to the contrary, was the speed and accuracy of an attack.
Speed: - Functioning as it does now, as how fast a player can move. Measured against Precision to determine dodging.
Defense: Your ability to withstand the damage done to you.
This stat system addressed much of the above problems.
There was no redundancy. There was reason to extend into three stats, four given that the amount of min-maxing that could be done without crippling your character in another way meant builds could vary more without running into one sided fights. Not only that but at the time attack power and attack accuracy were a part of the system previous to it. It was simply made so that accuracy was no longer an invisible stat while offering something in the way of statistical variation.
It also did not cheapen an attack's viability. Specializing in Power or Precision did not gimp you. As they were both a part of the attack check the results of each would have adjusted the resulting outcome. Focusing in both would have left your character defensively weak but turned you into a Glass Cannon build.
As far as blocking attack types or building anti-attack type characters, it rendered that problem less catastrophic. Previously they could have maintained their offensive statistics but this is also where skills were emphasized for their importance rather than vague nebulous things they are now.
It increased the number of reliable variable builds greatly. In fact it created a sort of pokemon like balance between them. High Speed countered High Power. High Power Countered High Defense. High Defense countered High Precision. High Precision countered High Speed. Mix in the other stats and it made for a lot more variety in terms of what players could do. Balanced play styles were even possible in that regard without being impossibly weak.
So you want it to work? Change it back. It functioned far better.
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Skills That Do Nothing/Flawed Masteries
Furthermore it blew what skill focus there was clear out of the window. Skills can now do anything under the sun as long as you think it can and that is just...unacceptable in a statistical system. In rp, as always, this is less of a concern. But there needs to be a measure against which things work. Not having that is a detriment to any actual combat scenario and to the fairness in which said system should be applied.
For both that problem and another, I'm going to use Regeneration and Hierro as an example. These are skills that do ONE thing and only one thing. There is no definition whatsoever in them now and that created a problem as they DIRECTLY AFFECT WOUND RANKS. That one reaaaaaaaaaally important feature of the mechanical system that still exists.
Having a thing that nebulously affects them is just bad. It creates more problems because again, as conflict resolution goes, it just creates more questions. For other skills you've kicked everything out but the flavor, which again causes these sorts of problems. Particularly when I see mention of master level things being done without masteries.
The other problem with skills currently is one that's been around for awhile. By virtue of what they are, some skills as above, are very limited in what they can do. When it comes time for a mastery this causes issues with how the judgment is handled. Hierro, Hoho, Regeneration, and other very narrow focused skills become near impossible to pull off something mastery level with if trying to gain them later.
Hoho will only ever make you move faster. Regeneration will only ever heal yourself. Hierro only ever functions as a result of you taking damage. At a point you're asking players to go to unnecessary lengths and asspulls to try and justify it or to shoot for them very early. Yes creativity is necessary for masteries; not disputing that. But the means of approaching certain ones become far more difficult than other skills.
What I Would Do:
Ranks needs to do something beyond being used for comparison checks. I'm sorry, it's a thing, it should have stayed a thing, and undoing that is an issue.
Skill focus is what should be your primary concern when looking at things. Some skills are as easy as switching back to what they used to do, others (particularly where boosts were concerned) will need to be reevaluated. A major thing to consider is Skill Focus. What does the skill flavor say it can do? Ok great, that's your starting point. How much variation they can get out of it needs to be a consideration; an example I'll go to being Kido skills.
Kido spells can do a great number of things, right? Cordoned off into their defense, offensive, and healing sort of mage type character depending on which set you pick up. Within them you get a great number of things you can do in said set. You can justify any number of effects within them but given the variety of what each can already do effect wise, there are some things that should require a mastery before approaching. Teleportation, Causing damage THROUGH Kaido, Warping Time and Space to crush opponents through Hado (Black Coffin rings a bell, as does this REALLY REALLY neat custom spell Tokiyo had).
Things that would otherwise need a very specific flavor or a skill focused uniquely around that aspect/effect, basically, should be held until Mastery level type things. If a skill DOES have said flavor or focus on that then Advanced (if not from the get go depending on how narrow the skills variation is) should and can be a thing. And on the flip side of that, a skill that has a heavy focus in that one thing should only ever be ABLE to do that one thing. If my skill lets me fart murderous musical unicorns that explode at you, and each progressive step of that only makes them stronger (which I will get into shortly; the stronger thing, not the farting unicorns) then that skill should only ever let me do that. It's the Hoho/Regen/Hierro thing, in essence.
You shouldn't have someone trying to jam five wildly varying things into one skill because "ENERGY LETS ME!". Which yes is a thing that has been done. Ugh. No one needs attacks, healing, defensive spells, traveling, and whacky doodads in one skill. It degrades skills of value when someone without a skill dedicated to it comes along and rips chunks out of it.
As far as universal skills go: you'll want to strike a balance between variation as far as what they can do. This is also reliant on some of the other things I'm going to discuss in how you approach it. But certain skills also need tweaked to deal with fairness and with consideration to players.
RP being the one universal that pops to mind. A major flaw with it was that it became a skill you HAD to have in combat, or your opponent would have very big bonuses out of it. No skill should be a strict necessity for combat to function. It becomes a forced part of their build and in that is unwelcome. Furthermore, while the obvious choice for skill checks involving illusions, there IS no universal illusion skill. So making it the exception to tier boosting was essentially the same as shitting all over players who want to make illusions a flavorful or meaningful part of their character. Illusions themselves are a different topic I'll be hitting shortly.
As for issues as far as the masteries go: I would say being more lenient with such narrowly focused things be a part of it, but it also necessitates you really understand what that means and what you're willing to, as staff, to bend on in that regard, if any at all. I don't doubt there'd be some hit or miss at first but that's why you lot should be keep an eye on what the others do and dissent when you see a problem with it.
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The Arms Race/Effects/And the point where fuck everything I've written too much
However; it creates another problem. Shonen and game logic both dictate that attacks have a power rating of some type. Someone just punching is rarely as strong as a named attack (Trust me, I'm vomiting everywhere just saying this) as far as the universal constants go. As we lack that and mechanics by large, everything is vanilla and as a byproduct of that we've lost combat variability (forcing players to essentially get into slug fests with said vanilla attacks) with damned near everything. And that's a bit of a problem. That is terrible and we should feel terrible for letting it happen.
And god damnit I am getting sick of writing so I'm going to just kinda skip the presentation bit here and get on with it.
If stats are the canvas and skills the paint you use, techniques are the results of both. They are the acute expression of that skill as defined by what the skill says it can do. This is important because you need some manageable form of how such things translate into mechanics. And you need that because you can't have vague applications of such things in a mechanical system without causing further conflict when it comes into play. As staff; if you're doing the job properly you only ever have to deal with signing off on it. You shouldn't have to get involved in and slow down combat threads by double checking or trying to apply a ruling to how a thing works "as of that moment" because there is no reference for how they're supposed to work
As of right now there is now there is none of that. The only clear part of the system comes from stats and how skill ranks function. Nothing else. And again, if a mechanical system is meant to (at it's basic level) solve issues where players cannot agree those are things you rather clearly need. Otherwise it's reduced to smacking one another, dodging, or watching as the situation eventually explodes.
And let's be fair, techniques are a means of player ownership and investment in their characters.
Some effects were also an issue in how they were applied.
So here's where we run into an issue of not having stamina/and other stamina related issues.
Allow me to be frank in that I am both happy but unsure about it having been gutted from the system. On one hand Stamina was a very necessary function; it was a gauge of how often and how much of a resource someone could blow in an effort to gain an upper hand. Most systems require such a thing as a balancing attribute. On the other hand, removing it also means fights can be resolved with actual combat instead of outlasting the other person's stamina gauge. That is generally something I LIKE when compared to other options.
That's not to say it didn't have a point. It was a very simple means of measuring how much someone can blow before needing to recover it. That in turn affected the flow of combat and required players to think (some times) in how they might ration it in their turns. This is a good thing.
Stamina was also used to purchase wins, essentially, as part of the arms race discussed. That is less of an issue without boosts as something you can expend it on now and removing the double dipping. It was also a pretty limited resource which often required people who realized that and enjoyed mechanical combat to craft one from a custom skill. That was a flaw in the system well before I came here. If a system uses a resource like that then there should be a universal means to restore it in combat. RP jumps out at me as being an ideal candidate for such a thing but that is simply off the top of my head. Again variation would be key, not optimization, when designing it to include that.
Bringing it back might require a redesign of how stamina is gained/how much. That's more numbers than I care to throw out at people right now though.
The Other Half
The answer I came up with, at least to reach some sort of middle ground as far as everything in total is as follows, some of it is new, some of it is not. Most of it is sharing what was the unwritten or minor stuff that sometimes wasn't explained. Either way these are measures I'd suggest, barring any I've already addressed in previous sections:
Two actions remain a constant of our system. Non-actions can play their part still, but if it causes damage then it should itself cost an action to generate or use.
Many of the previous non-damage effects can be reinstated without issue. Teleporting, barriers, negation, clones, and reversals.
Technique slots are a necessity, as for how many and gaining further I would point to the old standard (5 + 2 for/per a mixed/gateway power) with a gp price on buying further. I detested the old scale because it became a GP levy on building your character and at no point should technique price rival the price of skills (of which they are a derivative of). An alternative means of gaining them might be more appreciable? As to how I'm not sure off the top of my head.
Whether a technique is physical or spiritual still matters. Particularly when it comes to defensive effects/and skills. Many things only affect one or the other, whereas those that affect both should have something to balance it out, either a longer cooldown or a drawback.
Wounds had a weird ...kink under the old system. That discrepancy being that there was the idea that different parts of your body had separate health counters. A wound is a wound is a wound, though, but it was never strictly stated to be as such and was best left to the partners to determine. Kicking that to the side in favor of making it clear that there is only one wound level at a time matters. Part of it might have been due to the misinterpretation of Wound Stacking, but that's a guess.
With stamina much of the effects would remain unchanged. Without...well, that's another matter. Some of the more complicated, as follows, I would do as such:
Some effects would change in nature. Poisons, which were rarely defined or defined well, (depending on how it is done), I might suggest running like a reverse regen effect. Once inflicted it builds every turn until it hits the "goal" wound, which is then treated as the real thing. Can be interrupted to either bleed it out (take damage than you might normally if you let it run the course, non-action usually) or removable via kaido. Dedicated skills or powers could accelerate it so it the wound counter increases per action or set it off prematurely. Non-damage poisons aren't....really? Anything else would fall under a debuff or drain effect (if stamina is a thing)
Illusions are not a skill vs skill check. They should always have a stat paired with, most often precision. This determines whether or not it hits or not, effects beyond that should be handled as per norm. What differentiates them is that most effects last only until the illusion expires, whatever that effect may be. And yes that means there much be some sort of innate cutoff period for it not linked to skill rank. Powers could be an exception to that if there is some sort of out paired to it (the infamous sword touching included in Aizen's bullshit, for example)
Clones/Summons/Pets were difficult to understand before, because they amounted to extra actions but not. To explain: they have their own actions but they happen in the same time frame as yours (give or take a few seconds). Meaning they could act defensively on your behalf or if attacking the opponent would act like a wound rank increase (because of attacking at near the same time, which would explain why blocking dealt with both). This needs to remain this way out of fairness. No one should be getting two extra attacks out of things. Anything else is debatable as to their application.
Negation/Teleports/Reversals were the only effects that functioned without stat checks. That is how they should remain, along with significant cool down effects. Explicitly: Five turn cooldown for teleports (as skill check was not strictly involved), and a minimum of 2 turn cool down for any negation or reversal that function at advantaged or better. 3 if equivalent skill check. If double action, then reduce a step in the penalties. Adding stats into these can be done so optionally, and thus reduce the cooldown a step as well. Or should. Speed vs Precision + skill check, needing only equivalent for Teleport and Power vs Power + skill check for the other two. Powers and dedicated skills can obvious do a bit more or add to it.
Without, there would need to be a measure of cooldown/limitation on use. Some effects had that naturally, others would need to be looked at as far as adding them.
Boosts are not a stamina expenditure any further. Their presence should, as they are at least somewhat necessary, be limited to static purchases that would replace any other effect in a skill's rank. I would do this as +5 per each use, and applied only to that skills precision or power (or redundant stat accuracy or power), not both. Defensively it would work the same. This bonus should never top out at more than +30 for either, even with supplemental skill involved. An additional effect or +5 could be feasible at mastery levels but that's debatable,(as long as it didn't exceed the +30 I imagine there'd be no issue and it would be more fitting of a mastery.)
I suggest this for a few reasons:
It allows variation in character ability without making offensive or defensive stats better than the other.
Assuming someone burns all their skill ranks to get +30, they'll have spent alot of gp to do it. It will also be trading away any versatility that skill would have otherwise, making it, as far as skill focus is concerned, narrow in that it will only ever do that one thing.
Because more likely, players will see mixes in skills they choose to master end up +10 - +20 depending. Either way it isn't a number that is insurmountable in game play terms (as it was when you could spend stamina).
Supplements then have some meaning as far as what they can do. Either adding versatility or usefulness to the specific skill it is meant to enhance. If it is ever to effect another skill that should be a rank slot at mastery or grandmaster spent to attain such a use and obviously must make sense as far as flavor goes.
Wound rank increases can be a thing naturally worked into ranks, but only if bonuses to attack stats from the above were not being applied to the damage check. As a safety measure, in fact, I would recommend without a mastery rank dedicating itself to allowing Power to affect the damage check that it can't affect anything but the to-hit check. Combining that with a wound rank increase (at gm or switched around) would be a feasible means thing as well.
As far as powers: I would recommend returning to the Direct, Mixed, and Gateway format we had before. Direct being treated as a dedicated skill for the purposes of doing somewhat more with the effect (and being a contained sort, gaining no bonuses from anything else and offering none to anything else, and thus the benefits are doing so are either more power or passives that make it easier to use), Mixed offering a built in signature technique slot and more versatility in favor of it being altered by supplement skills or however it functions, and gateway being a non-descript concept like power, allowing players a wider range of what can be done with it vs the limitations of mixed (controlling heat vs controlling fire)
Power Skills should be reorganized. Time Release skills should alternate between giving the players more time in that form and increasing their release bonus (to a max of +60 and only applied towards one release). This would apply to Res, Fullbringers, and Zan Resonance, and Reishi Domination. Non-Time Release states should confer some sort of passive non stat bonus. First blush I would suggest either non-attack techniques (as has been traditional, and in human powerskill cases could be used as either free techs or have some designed that fit) and something that benefits race related skills as the alternating benefit. Regaining stamina for using them if stamina is a thing, for example.
I suggest the above not because there's anything detrimental in the current system or previous as to sealed/non-sealed releases, but as the former take an action to release before mastery level (or did) it feels like they should deserve some benefit befitting that. And as every race has access to a sealable state unless they decide to go off menu, it's a practical application of time and effort to set the standards. That's opinion, mind you, but as pointed out, as every race has access to both it's pretty...even level playing field wise? It also gives people who choose to go off menu to go for a sealed state as opposed to what they might already have.
On the mention of timer effects. Keep in mind the average fight can go about 3-5 posts; 5 being more typical than the exception in my personal experience. Having a timer that lasts 8 rounds is pointless because you might as well say "indefinitely" at that point.
As far as stamina is concerned, I have no strong feelings on it myself. If it's something you intend to use again I'd start with the old numbers and then adjust as necessary after you've seen it in practice. If yes then adjusting stamina regain to a universal skill (whether RP or not) should be a simple matter. Never more than 50% of their total stamina unless it upgrades at mastery. Beyond that best judgment is best you can do.
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I think I covered plenty? I mean anything I can think of that is significant enough to merit talking about.
I reiterate though: This is based on my own knowledge/experience. More than that I would like to use it as a spring board for actual discussion, particularly on what players want to see/are curious about. If you have something you'd contribute or do differently? Great. Explain. The more that is said and the more that is defined as the players are involved then the more desirable the end product is.