I'm going to try to think objectively and with what I consider to be logic. Take what I say with a grain of salt since my input may or may not weigh as much at the moment.
The way I see it, to simplify things, there should only be 5 races. Human. Shinigami. Hollow. Variants. Half-Breeds. (feel free to edit the names)
In the real world if I specialize in Krav Maga, I'm no less human than someone that specializes in Karate. One may be a Karate specialist but alas he's still human. Mundane example I'm sure.
Either way, in "my" opinion, Humans should encompass: Quincy, Fullbringers, Powerless Humans. (Despite how different your approach at power might be, at the end of the day, you're still a human regardless of how unique you might be/feel).
Shinigami: Self Explanatory
Hollow: Self Explanatorry
Variant: Whatever cannot be categorized as any race of the above, i.e: Bounts, Mod Souls
Half-Breeds: Arrancar, Vizard. They cross the line from one species to another. Despite how much closer they might be to one or another, they more than skirt the line to be considered separate altogether (and more difficult to attain for that matter).
Post by Shun Minamoto on Sept 30, 2016 21:05:22 GMT -5
A very thoughtful approach, Junji.
Let's pretend we were building something brand new, ground up. I suppose my input would be this.
About Hollows: In a game about character relationships, wouldn't we want to focus and advertise the most human of the options, the Arrancar? Monsters that hide under your bed make terrible conversational partners in a game about relationships.
Humans: Spot on, love it.
Vaizards: If we did put the focus on Arrancar, they'd need their own group, I'd say. I suppose you could class them under Shinigami, though, if you're going for maximum streamlining. We'd also be assuming a world were you aren't given separate groups for Prestige Classes (or maybe Prestige doesn't exist at all).
There are a lot of ways to approach it, and a lot of things to consider.
People value things differently, and for different reasons. That's all.
Last Edit: Sept 30, 2016 21:05:54 GMT -5 by Shun Minamoto
I agree with the idea that the most human option, the Arrancar would likely be best suited for character relationships. And honestly it would be the most popular too. But wouldn't that make the lesser option pretty much non existent in terms of player representation? I've only skimmed but I could hardly see any hollows.
As far as Vizard/Arrancars, while I may be mistaken, I see them as reflections on a mirror/still water. Surely they are not the same. But they are as indirectly related as they can be. They are an aberration of their race, going beyond what a shinigami or a hollow is suppossed to be. In the process they become something more. No longer able to be considered the race they once were, they would need a different label.
If however its seen as more adequate to have Arrancars be their own group, it would make sense to do the same for Vizards. But for the sake of less clutter/tabs, doing so would seem a bit counterproductive.
Post by Shun Minamoto on Sept 30, 2016 21:14:56 GMT -5
In our particular take on the Bleach world, would a lack of Hollow player-characters be a bad thing?
We also don't have anyone playing powerless souls in the Rukongai, at least as far as I know. And no one's playing a Komamura-type at the moment, either.
Certain things might exist in canon but not make the best player-characters. I think Hollows are one such thing, which means that Arrancar are the only really viable Hollow-types to play.
Otherwise, pertaining to your next point, I'd make them a Prestige Class like Vaizards. That way, all hybrid options are Prestige Classes. Perfectly symmetrical, love it.
So, ultimately, your conclusion is what appears to have been the decisions here, with one minor change.
Instead of renaming Quincy to Humans, they kept the Quincy label at the expense of accuracy in order to make it abundantly clear via character colors -- something you see before you even get the rules threads! -- that we have Quincy as a group. And this takes the same "Arrancar over Hollow" reasoning we just walked through a little farther.
Would we rather advertise Quincy or Humans in general? Quincy was the choice, and I can understand this approach.
Last Edit: Sept 30, 2016 21:17:45 GMT -5 by Shun Minamoto
I agree with the idea. Ideally, hybrid options are something that needs to be worked towards icly (at least from what I've gathered). It would make sense to classify them separately, and Prestige Classes would fit it.
An emphasis on your skill or the ideal that defines you should be paramount whether we speak of Quincy or Fullbringers. But their roots, their origin and what makes them vulnerable [humanity] shouldn't be overlooked in the advent of being different. While their approach and believes separate them, its the common tie to a very particular and promising race that makes them similar despite the inherent differences.
Post by Shun Minamoto on Sept 30, 2016 21:31:53 GMT -5
Yeah, in a perfect world, things would be completely different. But, then, all of these years of calling them "Hollow-Breeds" and having Hollows with their own group, Hollows never really amounted to much despite having stuff like Las Noches -- which was much more lively in the past!
But sacrifices have to be made to accommodate the setting, which is why Arrancar aren't a Prestige option.
People make the best decisions they can, when they can.
"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody."
Post by Shun Minamoto on Sept 30, 2016 21:34:56 GMT -5
No, you know what, here's what you do.
Shinigami, Arrancar, Quincy, Human.
Keep the Variant Request: It allows you to be just that, a variation on something that makes you completely out there and different. However, I wouldn't necessarily shove them all into the Human group. For instance: Munin and Puuchan would probably be just fine if they were colored red but nothing else about them had to change. I don't think they'd mind so much, but maybe I'm wrong!
Every other Variant we currently have active is just a flavor of Human.
Might be a good alternative, but it's definitely more drastic than what was proposed here.
Post by Mei Rowan on Sept 30, 2016 21:49:32 GMT -5
So children, what have we learned after four pages of bull and utterly unnecessary drama? Nothing? Everything? Anything? Lets not make giant problems out of small changes to the user interface of BG that, once upon a time, were actually a thing anyway? Don't let the salt poison your experience? No? Well, how about this:
Quincy, along with Humans/Variants, haven't really done shit in the 5 years I've been here and the changes are arguably needed to bring life to two dying racial groups? No again? Eh, too bad- that was my best guess. Guess we'll just have to like, hate on Justin or some other old BG Drama Llama pastime.
So children, what have we learned after four pages of bull and utterly unnecessary drama? Nothing? Everything? Anything? Lets not make giant problems out of small changes to the user interface of BG that, once upon a time, were actually a thing anyway? Don't let the salt poison your experience? No? Well, how about this:
Quincy, along with Humans/Variants, haven't really done shit in the 5 years I've been here and the changes are arguably needed to bring life to two dying racial groups? No again? Eh, too bad- that was my best guess. Guess we'll just have to like, hate on Justin or some other old BG Drama Llama pastime.
For the record? No hate here. Just a lot of irritation at seeing and hearing the same stupid bullshit with zero results and progress being made in any degree. And a collapsing saltmine at the lack of actual reading comprehension and particular attitudes known for causing issues here. It's almost like people have been saying there's a problem with player integration or something, Jason-- oh wait. Let's go ahead and breakdown another issue we have on the board, one you are very intimately familiar with, as I am, and several others on this board as well: Character Abandonment.
What happens when a player doesn't get the asspat they feel they deserve, their characters don't launch the way they expect them to, they didn't put enough foresight into the character during creation, they get distracted by a Brand New Character Idea, or they realize "Hey this was great conceptually but doesn't fit?" They abandon them for the next new and shiny thing. Or, they're dedicated to a idea... and lose literally anyone/everyone attached/who was in with it and thus either has to power through it from scratch, connections and plot wise in a forum that struggles to integrate new characters and players into the fold, and they drop it in favor of an already established character who's got at least a few threads going.
You know what happens when people abandon characters? Ideas don't go through. Actions don't go through. Plots fall and characters die. Quincy, Hollow, and until Jian showed up? Variants/Humans didn't have shit despite others' efforts to get something going. Look at the Arrancar/Hollow now. Nothing's going on with them. There's been talk-- but just like every race on BG; there's always talk.
Look at Weylin. He's had to do everything on his own. From the beginning. He is THE Quincy because he chose to power through and prove that it can, in fact, be done and you can get somewhere with a race that "doesn't go anywhere ever". Now? You've got Frey, Cress, Amelia, Aitrus and a buttload of new Quincy on board getting ready to get active and take it in a new direction.
Look at Jian; that post bandit's had more threads and connections with every race imaginable than 3/4 of the people on this damn site as a Variant-- and that was even before he Prestiged! He too, proved it possible to do-- and in record time, the absolute mad man. You have the KSN-- presently stalled because of the current event but still well established and known even to new characters. Every new Variant and/or Quincy that pops up? Gets a friendly HELLO HI from Jian. Usually a personal one in the form of a thread-- or one with someone associated with it.
Y'know what those people have in common?
They shut up. They quit shooting their mouths off. And they fucking did something.
If you're going to create a character and have Very Big Ideas/Plans to Revolutionize and Make x Great Again? Shut up. Quit talking about it. Fucking do it. Don't wait for Big Name Players to do the Senpai Noticed Me :D game and shower you with praise and approval and "HEY DO THIS THING DO IT NOW I WANT IN/YOU TO DO IT", shove your ego up your ass, and just fucking do it.
Last Edit: Sept 30, 2016 22:39:33 GMT -5 by Kireon
They shut up. They quit shooting their mouths off. And they fucking did something.
If you're going to create a character and have Very Big Ideas/Plans to Revolutionize and Make x Great Again? Shut up. Quit talking about it. Fucking do it. Don't wait for Big Name Players to do the Senpai Noticed Me game and shower you with praise and approval and "HEY DO THIS THING DO IT NOW I WANT IN/YOU TO DO IT", shove your ego up your ass, and just fucking do it.
That's a familiar tune. I like the song you're singing!
So children, what have we learned after four pages of bull and utterly unnecessary drama? Nothing? Everything? Anything? Lets not make giant problems out of small changes to the user interface of BG that, once upon a time, were actually a thing anyway? Don't let the salt poison your experience? No? Well, how about this:
Quincy, along with Humans/Variants, haven't really done shit in the 5 years I've been here and the changes are arguably needed to bring life to two dying racial groups? No again? Eh, too bad- that was my best guess. Guess we'll just have to like, hate on Justin or some other old BG Drama Llama pastime.
For the record? No hate here. Just a lot of irritation at seeing and hearing the same stupid bullshit with zero results and progress being made in any degree. And a collapsing saltmine at the lack of actual reading comprehension and particular attitudes known for causing issues here. It's almost like people have been saying there's a problem with player integration or something, Jason-- oh wait. Let's go ahead and breakdown another issue we have on the board, one you are very intimately familiar with, as I am, and several others on this board as well: Character Abandonment.
What happens when a player doesn't get the asspat they feel they deserve, their characters don't launch the way they expect them to, they didn't put enough foresight into the character during creation, they get distracted by a Brand New Character Idea, or they realize "Hey this was great conceptually but doesn't fit?" They abandon them for the next new and shiny thing. Or, they're dedicated to a idea... and lose literally anyone/everyone attached/who was in with it and thus either has to power through it from scratch, connections and plot wise in a forum that struggles to integrate new characters and players into the fold, and they drop it in favor of an already established character who's got at least a few threads going.
You know what happens when people abandon characters? Ideas don't go through. Actions don't go through. Plots fall and characters die. Quincy, Hollow, and until Jian showed up? Variants/Humans didn't have shit despite others' efforts to get something going. Look at the Arrancar/Hollow now. Nothing's going on with them. There's been talk-- but just like every race on BG; there's always talk.
Look at Weylin. He's had to do everything on his own. From the beginning. He is THE Quincy because he chose to power through and prove that it can, in fact, be done and you can get somewhere with a race that "doesn't go anywhere ever". Now? You've got Frey, Cress, Amelia, Aitrus and a buttload of new Quincy on board getting ready to get active and take it in a new direction.
Look at Jian; that post bandit's had more threads and connections with every race imaginable than 3/4 of the people on this damn site as a Variant-- and that was even before he Prestiged! He too, proved it possible to do-- and in record time, the absolute mad man. You have the KSN-- presently stalled because of the current event but still well established and known even to new characters. Every new Variant and/or Quincy that pops up? Gets a friendly HELLO HI from Jian. Usually a personal one in the form of a thread-- or one with someone associated with it.
Y'know what those people have in common?
They shut up. They quit shooting their mouths off. And they fucking did something.
If you're going to create a character and have Very Big Ideas/Plans to Revolutionize and Make x Great Again? Shut up. Quit talking about it. Fucking do it. Don't wait for Big Name Players to do the Senpai Noticed Me game and shower you with praise and approval and "HEY DO THIS THING DO IT NOW I WANT IN/YOU TO DO IT", shove your ego up your ass, and just fucking do it.
First of all, I'd like to point out that my post was not actually directed at anyone in particular.
Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, I agree. Character abandonment is something I am very familiar with and is an issue that needs to be addressed.
The only problem, Kire, is that you've already pointed out that people don't really stick to Variants or Quincy characters like they do to Shinigami/Arrancar. Which, as you pointed out (an vaguely ribbed me about), is their responsibility. The only thing Staff can do to foster growth in Quincy/Humans/Variants is to make the more broadly appealing- which is what they're trying to do here.
Is it a perfect solution? No, and tbqj it isn't even a good one, but what else would you have them do? As you've already pointed out, literally three (THREE) players in the history of BG have stuck out the difficulties of playing a Variant/Quincy to make a lasting impact, one of which is literally the SECOND person to ever Prestige a Quincy in the entirety of BG history.
At some point, the problem stops being something Staff can solve/influence and goes into realm of something that only players can fix. Except, as we've already pointed out, literally no one does. And that's no ones fault but their own.
Last Edit: Sept 30, 2016 23:09:52 GMT -5 by Mei Rowan
Variants have more than just two, y'know. The players just aren't here anymore. Same with Quincy. Same with Shinigami. Same with Arrancar. They're listed even! Go back and read what I said again; I said the two most heavily abandoned races as of the last couple years are Hollow/Arrancar and Quincy and it shows in their population. ESPECIALLY Hollow/Arrancar-- and was addressed as being a concern in another Site Discussion thread.
The thing BG as a community can do is quit being so bloody difficult to engage and integrate new players into. I don't know how many times I have to say this before it becomes clear that that's the actual crux of the issue; player integration and community attitudes.
Shinigami play with other Shinigami and tend to stay in Seireitei. #TeamValor
Hollow/Arrancar play with other Arrancar/Hollow unless they know they won't get their shit stomped on right off the bat for just poking their head into Earth/Soul Society. So they stay in Hueco Mundo/Las Noches. #TeamInstinct fuck me that's a bad play on words AAAAAAAA
Quincy and Variant engage and are willing to plot/thread with literally anybody. #TeamInstinct2.0 Find a way to Seireitei? Okay! Find a way into Las Noches? Fuck yeah, we got it!
Nowhere did I say that this is Staff and Staff Alone's problem to fix. Ever. I said this is a community wide issue that needs to fucking be addressed and dealt with as a community.
And no, darling, you're not the target of my ribbing; I was quite clear that this is an issue among many members of the site-- myself included. I have Hisui, Cecania, Rowen, and Wayfarer as proof of my own guilt in Shiny Idea Jumping; and I own and accept responsibility for my part in it. Oh, but I'mma be a hypocrite for a minute here and claim one fucking thing I can be an egocentric the size of Russia about; I brag about and loudly boast about my ability to fucking thread with just about anyone and everyone no matter what the race. No regrets in doing so; it's a lot of fun!
You want a solution for the integration problem?
Quit pairing off and playing only within your realm and race. Branch out. Plotkai the fuck out of that. Ask for some weird as fuck thread prompts/ideas to get the snowball rolling down plot mountain. Actually look beyond your own selfish desires of progression and power gains to boost other people up as well.
There's your solution.
EDIT: Isaac? You tried and rebooted how many times before throwing in the towel? That's still giving it effort and then acknowledging that it's time to start something new.
Last Edit: Sept 30, 2016 23:18:06 GMT -5 by Kireon
Maybe I'm missing something here. I've been doted of slow before so I wouldn't be surprised.
On one side we have the group that wants to unify different aspects of a race together. On another end we have a group that says that we only need to act, stop talking, just act.
All dandy. But if grouping a race with different unique ideals won't really change or stop the people who can and will act from taking the needed steps to advanced their characters, what's the problem here?
It seems like at this point people are just arguing for the sake of arguing. But its childish, its a bit off putting to newer members reading prominent players behaving in this manner, and really, is starting to get old quick.
P.S. Everyone seems pretty cool and pretty chill thus far. Let's not damage the impression you cause on some, by the impulses you have have in the heat of the moment. I'm only one person but I hardly believe I'm the only one that shares this view.
Junji, hello! These are the points I've been attempting to make:
- Keep Quincy and Spiritual Gifted Humans two separated because of their power sources/origins-- something that did, admittedly, get lost in the wash of other BS. Also arguing the whole 'the two should be merged because no one likes/plays them and that's why they get dropped because no one ever does anything with them' angle being played.
- Redirect the attention to the community as a whole to the fact that it isn't because the ideas behind the characters are bad, but that the reason people drop characters and remake/go for something else is because of a lack of proper new player integration into the community and "shiny idea hopping". The lack of integration is due to every race tends to 'stick with its own' unless you're a Variant and/or Quincy with the exception of a few others. Doing that blocks people in and creates a more clique-y feel rather than generates an atmosphere where you can meet others, plot, and develop epic tales of battle, rivalry, betrayal, alliances, etc.
I utterly detest things like that; you should, as a character, interact with every race whenever possible and see what the dynamic can offer your character and how it can change (or solidify!) their perceptions, beliefs, etc of the world as they know it!
While I agree with uniting Quincy and Fullbringers, I don't think its right to do it out of a lack of interest of the playerbase. My reasoning for it was simply that to me, it made sense for the reasons I mentioned in an earlier post here.
I don't have an answer as to how to help non-human races to rp more with each other due to the inherent differences and animosity races like hollows and shinigami have. In that sense, though plagued by issues that have been mentioned over and over again, Humans are gifted. Sure, they may still be prey to beings like hollows, but assuming a being powerful enough to defend him/herself, Humans (be they quincy or fullbringers), are one of if not the only race with the potential to break the barrier of race. They are able to, with more ease, communicate with other beings in ways that Shinigami and Hollows likely wouldn't.
I believe that's one of the areas where Jin found success, and where others might too. Perhaps, by acting as you suggested, and being proactive, different races could find a common ground to collaborate in similar ways that promote growth instead of hindering communication and segregating groups into their own niche.
So, perhaps, as mentioned before, adding another race description could solve the issue?
Version 1: Arrancar, Shinigami, Humans (the Jians and Sekais of the world, as well as the Weylins), Variants (Mod Souls, Zanpakutou Spirits, fucking Vampires ect.), Royals
- Quincy would no longer have a color named after them, that may bother some of them. - If you want to know what someone elses character is you look at their application anyways, not just their color. So throwing in Quincy with other humans that are not Quincy shouldn't confuse anyone, as long as everyone in blue is exlusively human and supposedly mortal.
What exactly seems to be the problem with doing something like that? No one's gonna die from the legend no longer showing "Quincy" when you hover your mouse over it - let's be real here. It is also much less confusing than it showing Quincy (even though I can understand yall Quincy here not wanting your name to disappear we have to compromise). If you want to make a human (blue) and become a substitute Shinigami like Sekai you could always prestige into a green color.
I assumed the color is only there to give a small perspective on what you are, what you could be. Red = Souls, Yellow = Hollows ect. No one's gonna look at your damn name color and immediately go OH I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE AND YOUR POWERS ARE! That's what applications are for?! Why would you be so married to the idea of making the precious seperation between Quincy and Mortals (yes, they are different and I realize that) simply through color?
When instead, you could have just a completely differnt looking application, different skill sets. You are no longer forced to make a quest when wanting to play a human like Sekai. Isn't that great? You may be a special snowflake. You will have to share your color with one other type of class, but that's just like Hollow and Arrancar basically sharing colors. I fail to see the problem here.
Am I missing out something significant? Are we all being too sensitive over the damn colors again? Does staff really hate the term "Humans" so much that they refuse to replace something so canon such as "Quincy" with "Humans"? :/ Even though it would make more sense?
this ain't for the best my reputation's never been worse, so you must like me for me we can't make any promises now, can we, babe?
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