Besides, I have other opinions: All other races are decidedly unimportant in Bleach (even Fullbringers got the smallest arc!) and everything that isn't Shinigami/Hollow/Quincy should simply be done away with. Why? If you want to play something not Bleach, go somewhere else. The continued existence of Variants is like letting people play aliens in an RPG about the American Civil War. And it's no wonder, to me, that the only two, decent Prestige Variants ever are both Shinigami.
That would be crazy. Almost like someone trying to play a Fate character here, but no one would eveeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr do something like that.
Jokes aside.
I think the changes to the categorization of races is just bad and the reasoning just shows such a superficial thought.
Really, does changing the name of the race really fix any of the issues? No, people who make what really are spiritualists will still have little to no structure to grab onto, simply because they are purposefully grabbing that plot line so they can be the hero they want to without any of the rules. They will still have no structure to fall back to.
It's not like saying mortal spiritualists are now in the Quincy group OOC will mean IC they are treated so.
Post by Shun Minamoto on Sept 30, 2016 19:22:00 GMT -5
My idiocy with Gilgamesh was a perfect example of why Variants are really, really dumb.
Alter Tova's success immediately afterwards demonstrates the answer even better: Stay in the setting.
And probably avoid historical figures altogether.
I don't like putting humans under Quincy as a whole, but I prefer it to leaving everyone else stuffed in Variants or making another label. Not ideal, but I see why it was done.
What is ideal?
Eliminating them entirely and replacing Variants with strictly Humans.
Last Edit: Sept 30, 2016 19:25:08 GMT -5 by Shun Minamoto
"Variants have continued to be more popular than both" is hardly an apt comparison, and that's ignoring that they have the highest drop-off rate of any group.
But allow me to demonstrate why it's not a good comparison in the first place.
I have two baskets of fruit and you may take one fruit from either basket. One is a basket of apples, the other is a basket of every fruit except apples.
Yes, the other basket will be more popular day-to-day, because it's not a choice between one thing and one other thing. It's a choice between one thing and a bunch of other things.
I'm not super big on this aspect of the change, mind you. My reasons for not loving it, however, are equally as flimsy: Based on feelings.
Besides, I have other opinions: All other races are decidedly unimportant in Bleach (even Fullbringers got the smallest arc!) and everything that isn't Shinigami/Hollow/Quincy should simply be done away with. Why? If you want to play something not Bleach, go somewhere else. The continued existence of Variants is like letting people play aliens in an RPG about the American Civil War. And it's no wonder, to me, that the only two, decent Prestige Variants ever are both Shinigami.
Except the existence of Orihime and Chad, as well as Ichigo prior to Kubo going full retard, and Karin and her twin (whatever her name was), as well as others, have shot your own argument in the foot. No, they weren't well explored, but neither were Quincy until the very last arc. Hell, most of the Shinigami weren't that great either. Kubo worked in ideas, not world building, and sure as fuck not characterization. Fullbringer Arc? Holy lord they made more damn sense in the material they were given than 3/4 of the shit he pulled out of his ass in the final arc with the Quincy. Your argument is incredibly thin and holds little water in that regard too.
Quincy powers differ from human spiritualists. This is not a fact that can be disputed in or outside of Canon BG or otherwise.
As for the Substitute Shinigami thing; As the person who not only created and introduced the concept of a BG canon version of Substitute Shinigami here, and that was an error on my part for even trying to, let me state for the record-- they're not Shinigami. They're human. Always have been. Always will be.
They are/were an option for Prestige Variant players-- much like Hollow have Vasto Lorde or Prestige Arrancar and Shinigami have Vaziard and Prestige Shinigami-- to utilize. Something that people can create a plot around and work towards to motivate people to go for Prestige Variant in the first place... and to offer plot fodder for all the players in Seireitei, Earth, and Las Noches if they didn't have a theme/story/idea for Prestige Variant. I said that in my creation topic of them, and I've reiterated that point time and time again. That stance has not, will not, and shall not change.
EDIT: So fix the Variant issue; turn them Human like we had them initially, for fuck's sake, and everything else goes under Red Team for being a Spirit/Soul. =)
Lines still divided, clarifications made, Quincy and Humans are separate, and anything else can work under Team Valor.
Last Edit: Sept 30, 2016 19:29:55 GMT -5 by Kireon
Post by Shun Minamoto on Sept 30, 2016 19:37:54 GMT -5
Yeah that's the thing, though.
Chad really didn't matter. Orihime was there for Ichigo to plow and make a kid with. The Fullbringers all died except video game dude and red-hair waifu. Kubo even teased some big Fullbring come back and all they did was use Tsukishima's sexy powers to plotkai Ichigo's Bankai back because I'm pretty sure Shounen Jump told Kubo to wrap it up.
I mean, the Bleach setting couldn't give less of a shit about humans if it tried. Kubo clearly didn't.
As for the quality of it: Oh yeah sure it was great when Kubo stuffed in the whole, "oh yes they can also absorb powers" bit. Super awesome quality.
Wonderful work, really. So much better than Quincy!
At least Quincy got that last Arc. And as I pointed out earlier, their lore -- while incomplete -- is more than enough to work with. Fullbringers don't even have a path of evolution. In fact, Ginjou himself said that Fullbrings don't change once they finish forming!
And as the guy that made the better Substitute Shinigami concept, let me tell you what: They are Shinigami. In every way. That was the whole point, I even talked to Jian about it. I'm looking, right now, at his very words, cheering that fact on back when we decided on it. It was a great thread, too.
So, yes, they've always been Shinigami. They always will be. Because whereas you threw off your own idea as, in your words, a "failure", I rather like how I did mine with Jian.
Which again leaves us with, oh, right: Two Shinigami parading around as Variants. :^) And you're both better off for it.
Your entire race is a failure, it has always been a failure, and it will continue to be a failure. Because this is Bleach and you just don't fit. But, for some reason, keep on trying to. At this point, I'm convinced it's 100% the high of, "Look at me, I'm super special, making this work!"
Now I can say this with absolute confidence: Variants will not survive 2017.
EDIT: AHAHAHAHAHAHA HOLY SHIT I JUST REALIZED THAT THE MOST POWERFUL FULLBRINGER WAS GINJOU: A FUCKING SHINIGAMI
Kubo always has my back.
EDIT2: No, really, if you find yourself clinging to the idea of playing an not-Bleach thing in a Bleach setting, maybe Bleach Gotei isn't for you? I know a lot of people say, "But the quality of writers!"
Yeah but we're not the only ones in the world. Remember that Sufficient Velocity place I mentioned? They have standard levels of quality perfectly on par with Bleach Gotei, minus being restricted to the Bleach setting. Maybe something like that is for you.
Because if you're dream is to roleplay fucking Yukio in a world with Arrancar and Shinigami and Vaizards and Quincy, you're doing it wrong.
Last Edit: Sept 30, 2016 19:55:04 GMT -5 by Shun Minamoto
Oh they won't survive because you'll have them on the chopping block-- I'm just counting down the time until you're officially back on staff and, eventually, Owner once again.
I wish you all the best, sincerely, in your endeavors and future plans on the board.
Personally, I'm not too worried about Shun being site owner again. Or even on staff. He had ample opportunity to eliminate them. Even expressed his wish to several times. And yet he didn't. Wouldn't I believe he said. All we gotta do is keep making interesting Variants and continue to survive to spite him.
Oh they won't survive because you'll have them on the chopping block-- I'm just counting down the time until you're officially back on staff and, eventually, Owner once again.
I replaced the effort I put into being Owner into my business, and there's no way I could match that profit via Bleach Gotei.
Personally, I'm not too worried about Shun being site owner again. Or even on staff. He had ample opportunity to eliminate them. Even expressed his wish to several times. And yet he didn't. Wouldn't I believe he said. All we gotta do is keep making interesting Variants and continue to survive to spite him.
If I was suddenly Tokiyo, I'd replace them with strictly Humans in a heartbeat.
Humans are part of the Bleach setting. A minor part that didn't really matter in the grand scheme of things, but they were there. I'd never get rid of those.
The, "and anything else" clause of Variants is something I'd definitely murder.
Post by Mirabelle Bonnet on Sept 30, 2016 20:06:36 GMT -5
Um, I don't think this was brought up yet, but... Why weren't we (the players being lumped together) asked how we felt? I get you want to make things easier for new people, but why do something the existing player base might not like?
They don't generally care; the "site discussion" is really just a forum for them to glance at, laugh at the players rebelling against their vision, and then when the dust settles? Nothing changes, everyone goes on with their lives until the next change.
Oh, and to find out who the shit stirrers/voices of dissent are so they can keep tabs on them, of course.
Unfortunately, to play devil's advocate here, the community has a poor track record regarding asking permission over forgiveness. See any discussion regarding race colors. Asking beforehand grinds everything, good or bad, to a halt. Asking afterwards gets the good in and the bad pruned off.
I'd like to butt in here to say that this new change only reflects new characters being made. Existing variants will remain green, even if they are human, though can certainly become blue if they should choose so. This change doesn't really affect the current character base as much as the future one. This is not an answer to your question, but a clarification that I feel might have gone under the radar for some!
Last Edit: Sept 30, 2016 20:17:02 GMT -5 by Emily White
I think it affects the current player base as well by turning the green into an endangered species unless the non monk of destruction "Quincy" will be able to be green as well. Something of a slow extinction rather than an immediate genocide.
I'd like to butt in here to say that this new change only reflects new characters being made. Existing variants will remain green, even if they are human. This change doesn't really affect the current character base as much as the future one. This is not an answer to your question, but a clarification that I feel might have gone under the radar for some!
That sounds even more confusing.
Conflicting colours, conflicting roles and conflicting identities. If I joined BG tomorrow and saw 'non-Quincy' labelled as Quincy that'd be confusing in and of itself.
They don't generally care; the "site discussion" is really just a forum for them to glance at, laugh at the players rebelling against their vision, and then when the dust settles? Nothing changes, everyone goes on with their lives until the next change.
Oh, and to find out who the shit stirrers/voices of dissent are so they can keep tabs on them, of course.
<EDITED FOR CONTENT BY STAFF>
Meanwhile, you've got Dew right below you pointing out the real reason: History.
Instead, you've gone and insinuated that people like Jian Oreachi , Emily White , and Roy Blue are involved in some ridiculous conspiracy. Sure, maybe you can sell me on the fact that you think Consequence , Eve Avana , and maybe (huge stretch) Value are.
Do you really think that they all just don't give a shit? Why? Why just go and insult those people like that?
Because I pointed out the thing you've admitted in the past? That the only argument you have for Minor Races is that you're a special snowflake and unreasonably attached to a color on Bleach RP forum?
And you go after them for that?
Lay waste to my inbox, my Skype, anything, I don't care -- just don't target those people.
Last Edit: Sept 30, 2016 20:43:33 GMT -5 by Consequence
I'd like to butt in here to say that this new change only reflects new characters being made. Existing variants will remain green, even if they are human. This change doesn't really affect the current character base as much as the future one. This is not an answer to your question, but a clarification that I feel might have gone under the radar for some!
That sounds even more confusing.
Conflicting colours, conflicting roles and conflicting identities. If I joined BG tomorrow and saw 'non-Quincy' labelled as Quincy that'd be confusing in and of itself.
I tried to sneak a little edit in there before I was quoted on anything, but it seems I was too late! Current variants can certainly choose to become blue as of this change. We do not want to force current characters to change their colour but are giving them the option to do so if they prefer.
As for conflicting colours, roles and identities, this is not really something I worry about myself as, well, we are rewriting what these colours represent with this update. It's something to get used to for current players, that's for sure, but any new players who are confused by the Quincy term being used for non-traditional Quincy, or spiritually aware humans, can quickly be enlightened by reading our rules.
Last Edit: Sept 30, 2016 20:29:51 GMT -5 by Emily White
Which part of what I'd said was a lie? The part where nothing actually changes in the discussions and the members' input is ignored time and time again? The part where it all boils down to, "Oh, but you can just leave if you don't like it!" or "We'll discuss this and get back to you at a later date (read: never)?"
History reveals that's no lie; that's a fact.
Nothing changes and that too is part of history. Problem members come up? Very little to nothing is done about them unless you earn the animosity of the majority of staff or fuck up publicly enough that there's no burying it-- and I'll even reference myself in that regard as being a problematic member. I look for results. I look for changes in patterns and behavior.
There was supposed to be more transparency between staff and player base. That sure as fuck didn't happen.
There was supposed to be a very pointed and thorough revision of the Rules of Player Conduct and what the consequences therein were going to be. That too, never fucking happened.
Mirabelle asked a question, I gave him an answer from my own perspective from being here three and a half years-- one I am not the only one who's voiced publicly and privately as well; those on that little list of yours? They know my feelings quite well on the matter-- minus likely Emily White and Dicarus, as they're still fairly fresh but have likely gone through archives. This isn't something of a surprise to the rest, so the little attempt at emotional blackmail? Cute. But wrong.
I know my weaknesses in writing and as a human being, darling, and nowhere on this fucking board have I ever tooted my own horn and bragged about being a stellar writer or individual. Quite the fucking opposite as you can go back and see, multiple times over. Not my style, not my way. And rarely do I "whine" without offering a solution as to how to fix what I perceive as a problem-- if you actually read and not skim over looking for points to attack and snark at to support your own arguments/motivation.
To assume I have an ego the size of Russia and live in some glorified fantasy world where I'm some Goddess of Perfection is fucking hilarious, I applaud your creativity in trying to paint me in quite the lovely light and will add it to my record books.
Last Edit: Sept 30, 2016 20:48:34 GMT -5 by Kireon
I'd like to butt in here to say that this new change only reflects new characters being made. Existing variants will remain green, even if they are human, though can certainly become blue if they should choose so. This change doesn't really affect the current character base as much as the future one. This is not an answer to your question, but a clarification that I feel might have gone under the radar for some!
I did miss that bit of information in all of this, thank you! While I realize it doesn't really affect me anymore, I do feel for the Quincy like Amelia who are against the change, because it does still affect them.
Edit: So, I am still wondering why they weren't asked how they felt. I know I'd feel similarly to Amelia if I'd rolled a Quincy. No animosity toward staff, I'm just honestly curious.
Post by Consequence on Sept 30, 2016 20:46:52 GMT -5
To Shun: That was most certainly uncalled for. Definitely crossed a line and I'll speak with you shortly in private.
To everyone else: I'm on call and I had a page come in, so I apologize for not being able to pay closer attention to this. I am certainly reading everything, and so long as the discourse is good and the opinions are honest, I'm happy to talk about this further.
I didn't pay $1,000 a word to publish this update, or make a blood sacrifice to hit POST. There is nothing that has been done that we cannot talk about and review or revise, so, let's back our blood pressure down cool off a minute.
Last Edit: Sept 30, 2016 20:48:09 GMT -5 by Consequence
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