Reading back through Jian's post, about the mortals really, I don't think it's a matter of concept so much as wording. Which I can agree with. As it's currently being sold, humans aren't put in the best light. Especially if it sounds like we're encouraging people to make anything else. Sort of like WoW's rested bonus. To explain, in World of Warcraft, there's a debuff to experience gain if you go for a certain length of time without sleeping. This was looked at like a horrible feature. Blizzard turns around and says when you sleep, you get a bonus to your xp gain. A bonus that brings you up to what before was just standard gain. Same concept, different wording. Word something just right, and you can move nations.
Edit for Toki:
I understand that, but is there really anything wrong with keeping mortals called mortals and just being harder on those apps that are ripping off some other character from another series? There's nothing I can see that says we can't enact these new policies, but keep calling them mortals.
Mortals won't be called mortals because that "class" is now a catch all class.
The Mortal class has always been a "D. None of the above" class and now we're just being much more open in that. If anything, changing it to minor race (or whatever) encourages more diversity among that "class".
Post by Tsutsugami Haruki on Mar 16, 2015 20:06:54 GMT -5
Fact of the matter is that just like in canonical Bleach, the amount of mortals on BG that actually—well, put at its bluntest—matter is vanishingly small.
The amount of any race that actually matters is 'vanishingly small', as you put it. So please, don't use those that 'matter' as an argument. All that'll do is further fuel the fire under many a Mortals ass, and further solidify their belief that this is being done because they 'don't matter'.
I'm sorry you feel that way, but it's true. All the big movers and shakers are Shinigami or Hollows. Mortals don't accomplish much, and they certainly don't leave a legacy. The only one that comes to mind is TK, and he's an purple-name. More than that, though, he heavily, heavily heavily rooted his character in the actions of—you guessed it—Shinigami and Hollows.
I have high hopes for the Quincy under Weylin's leadership, especially now that they've received a great deal of canonical love.
Post by Tsutsugami Haruki on Mar 16, 2015 20:13:28 GMT -5
I'm not saying that I don't get where you're coming from. I'm simply saying that that, small, part of your argument is almost entirely invalid because of the reason I stated.
I'm completely of the thought that as a whole Mortals/The Minor Races are largely insignificant when compared to the grand scheme of things. It isn't so much Kubo's fault, as it is ours; the players/writers of said Mortals/Minor Races.
Post by Shinpei Minamoto on Mar 16, 2015 20:15:13 GMT -5
And would you call that a meaningless correlation (good players don't often play Mortals simply because) or a meaningful causation (good players choose to play other races most of the time because of the source material and the options available to them)?
In essence, should we do nothing because less AwesomeStuff(tm) coming out of Mortals is merely a fluke, or should we expect this result and act accordingly?
We're steering people to Shinigami, Arrancar/Hollow, and Quincy
This is the problem I have with the change.
If you feel you have to change some wording about and fit everything into a miscellaneous file just to try and draw more appeal to one of the three "different" races in the Bleach settting, there's a problem and it's not with the player base.
I would suggest seeing why people are choosing to go Eevee (Mortals) instead of going for, y'know, Reshiram (Shinigami), Zekrom (Hollow), or Kyurem (Quincy) they way you'd like.
As for the name change... it's amusing, but not something I honestly see the point in. The term "mortal" can encompass anything-- the mortal limitation is strictly "I will not be able to keep fighting as long as someone of a Spirit based Race because of my physical frame shoots me in the ass every time." The umbrella term still works for Bounts, Demons, Angels, Dragonborn, Khajiit, and Javaid born as you please.
Mortal just means if I hit you going 90mph with a tanker full of gasoline and it explodes, you're pretty much a greasy flaming red smear on the ground in comparison to some asshole from another dimension who either phases through the damn thing and Ceros it, or just goes "w/e," and walks away resetting broken limbs and pulling their spleen out of their left lung while sending the dead and now on fire driver's poor traumatized soul on to the afterlife to probably reincarnate as a pizza delivery boy.
EDIT: Addendum to my post.
If people are worried that Mortal = MUST BE HUMAN, just add a line or two in the Mortal part of the rules section clarifying. That's all that really needs done.
Your reasoning is sentimental, not rational. If mortals felt a fire was being lit under their ass (and I suppose you could argue that it is), that's a great way to separate the men from the boys: maybe now you'll do something that leaves a mark. We've had mortals for years, and they're constantly being retconned out because they're just
bad
and that's regrettable
But the core of the problem is and will remain that without some form of organization like the aforementioned Gotei or Espada, Mortals simply fade out. I was inactive for an entire year and Kyousuke still looms over Seireitei like some sociopathic shadow. Urufu was gone for less than half that and people pretended he had never existed and he was literally King of Hueco Mundo once upon a time.
You've chosen mortal, no doubt, for the freedom of choice. That's great, it's entirely your decision to make, but you can't expect to have your hand held the entire time because of a choice you made. This clamoring is exactly that: your character is transient at best and this upsets you, and rather than forge a legacy, you choose to whine.
I have no sympathy for that (or indeed a great many other things).
Post by Jian Oreachi on Mar 16, 2015 20:21:34 GMT -5
First off, I am super concerned about the mechanics because, frankly, they seem largely unnecessary as it stands, but also provide someone like me a lot of weight of knowing who my character is in the world.
Mechanics are not gone. They haven't been scrubbed from the site entirely. They're still there for you to use and the community is still free to work together to improve and patch them like normal. The only thing changing is that you're no longer required to do them.
The second big thing, minor race.
Once again, Mortals are not gone. The Mortal class has always been used as a catch all class on BG. While many people do use it just for a spiritually aware person, others used it for demons, bounts, or anything that wasn't a Shinigami/Hollow/Quincy. Now we're just being open with the class by saying "Hey. Don't want to be one of the main races? That's okay, use this template."
I'll recount my meanings because the above was a little ranty and I'm sure I lost my point. (Afterword: Yeah another rambly rant XD, okay I'll get my point across properly someday)
The mechanic changes, if they accomplish very little, seem like they're irrelevant when you could just say "You don't need to do them so don't worry" a little more clearly instead of overhauling it. Since I assume that's not the extent, the change worries me because I like what's being doing. So either A) The change is literally nothing so what's the point or B) The change is significant, and people who like mechanics will be this weird sub-class of people. I guess let me ask this
Can I still say here's the technique I'd like, it does this and have someone go, yes it does, or no that's too big a bonus? 'the elimination of staff-supported Mechanics,' makes me think otherwise, and I loved that.
The second, it's the use of language. It's minor races instead of misc, it's implying we're trying to snowflake, it's the weird reactivation rule that makes me feel like mortals are trying to be killed off, it's
'we will not be accepting Mortal reactivations.'
'It takes only a moment’s extra effort to turn your special snowflake Mortal'
'Mortals are part of the Bleach world, yes; but they’re the tiniest, most insignificant part.'
and then the weird sort of sidestepping after you've made the point.
Lemme know if I'm wrong, but basically it seems like 'mortals are weird and don't fit in with bleach so we kinda want em gone but don't worry we won't punish people who already are'
The problem is, as Tokiyo put it so pointedly with Chad and Inoue I now feel like the admins, people of power think of me like that. Or my fellow mortals who I've had a blast participating in a very human story of what it means to exist in a world where the rest of Bleach has.
So it's not the wording really, it's because despite it being one of the more popular player classes and telling, I think, some of the more interesting and compelling stories that it doesn't seem to fit the image of what you guys think Bleach should be about and that stinks
it's also kind of silly you couldn't just be up front if that's the case haha.
I accept that mortals kind of break the bounds of good taste when it comes to what is fitting in this universe and not. You can take some and be, how does this fit in the world and be right to say maybe it doesn't and that hurts the feel of the universe canon we're trying to make here. I agree that this is a problem that can be addressed and should be. So extra oversite on human apps is cool, maybe rename minor to misc, because I'm a big girl.
My drive to mortal isn't to make a snowflake. It's to take a relatively normal person, throw him into the unknown world of bleach and tell a really human fish out of water story in that guise. And now I'm left wondering if people are looking at that and going ugh that's not bleach.
i mean we've literally got a quincy in show who wrestles people, and another who imagines reality. It's taking the idea of fullbring and running with it to see what cool stories come out of it. The logic behind this seems to boil down to people not liking what we've done with mortals more than anything else and I'm left wondering what I did wrong :S
also we'll see kyou.
----
Obligatory everybody love everybody, i ain't mad disclaimer etc etc
We're steering people to Shinigami, Arrancar/Hollow, and Quincy
This is the problem I have with the change.
If you feel you have to change some wording about and fit everything into a miscellaneous file just to try and draw more appeal to one of the three "different" races in the Bleach settting, there's a problem and it's not with the player base.
I would suggest seeing why people are choosing to go Eevee (Mortals) instead of going for, y'know, Reshiram (Shinigami), Zekrom (Hollow), or Kyurem (Quincy) they way you'd like.
Simple:
People quite erroneously believe they're special. They're no such thing. The appeal of Mortal is almost always "I can be unique" when really what you should be doing is letting your writing speak for itself.
Mortal players, I feel, know that they would ultimately be unremarkable if they chose a real race, and therefore seek to leave their mark in another way.
We have seen. Time and time again. Statistically speaking, the character you're posting on won't matter six months or even a year from now. You're not the first, nor will you be the last.
I can see your point, but since Fullbringers/spiritual aware humans are part of Bleach, and thus so badly underutilized much like Quincy used to be (fuck you, Kubo, just... fuck you.), it also leaves a lot of room for people to actually play in a very large, very open sandbox where you actually have to show your skills and work harder to make a story line, to progress your character up the echelons of power, and, ultimately yes, become "relevant" to the world as a whole in comparison to how structured the Quincy, Shinigami, and Arrancar paths are.
It's, to me anyway, basically playing Dante Must Die Mode rather than playing Normal or Hard Mode.
No, not everyone's going to make it. No, not everyone's going to ever match up to what "relevant" means in an individual's eyes because that definition varies from person to person and thus doesn't actually matter in a roleplay forum.
What are they doing to harm you other than being a rather gigantic eyesore, apparently? Nothing. That's about the gist of it.
They're playing out characters, and who knows?
Some of them may be playing the long haul tale; from cradle to grave and what lies beyond it.
Post by Jian Oreachi on Mar 16, 2015 20:33:37 GMT -5
>Big Girl.
Wait,WHAT?!
sry.
to clarify. I write jian as a I've got weird powers and I fight hollows and am learning about the world around me kind of story. he's gonna grow, he's gonna try to stop conflict, he's gonna try to fix the rukongai and bring peace to the spiritual world. and I should not feel guilty because he's a human telling a human story in a universe that was conceived as dbz but with swords. :I telling me how to play make belief in my universe that's basically dbz with swords, why I oughtta.
edit: it's not that you picked the wrong words, you just think the wrong things.
Post by Shinpei Minamoto on Mar 16, 2015 20:35:14 GMT -5
I'm not sure what the problem is here, Mortal-wise. This seems like an attempt to address a demographic which has always struggled (even in my time): new players picking Mortals without realizing what they're getting into. They almost always change races or ditch out. Mortals are harder to play. That's the long and short of it. It's just harder. So this sounds to me like an evaluative hoop for Mortal-makers to jump through, indicating writing strength, follow-through and personal ability. If they don't want to take the trouble: that's fine. There are races with better beginning resources, communities, etc.
If they do want to take the plunge, that's fine too. BG hasn't ever been a place about stifling creativity--but it's silly not to realize a problem and offer some warning signs.
You're welcome to download them, post them, look at them, even use them as you see fit. The overwhelming majority of you didn't, but I'm more than happy to host the files elsewhere. Of course, Staff no longer officially supports these, so it's completely open season regarding what you do!
As far as Minor Races are concerned!
The issue has always been "Why force a Bount to explain why they're a Mortal and not a testtube Shinigami". Not everything outside of the Shinigami, Hollow, and Quincy usergroups is some sort of human. Far from it, actually. At the same time, we can't provide a label for everything that might or can exist. So we went with a more general term that isn't specific. That's all that was about.
It depends on your definition of what matters on BG. If your definition is for big, massive, site-changing events and plots, you're right, Mortals are lacking.
If your definition for what matters on BG is that they're able to RP and affect other characters for good and for ill, then they do a pretty damn good job of that. Sure, a lot of people go through and then vanish, but so what? Shinigami hardly have a better retention rate. Although I do admit that, in some ways, I like the idea of trying to refocus on the core conflict of Bleach, I do disagree with the idea that Mortals are irrelevant there. They still very distinctly have their place, although they should be incredibly rare in comparison to the overall setting. While it's possible to take some character concepts and make them into Shinigami, or Hollow, or Quincy, there are some that doesn't fly for. Quincy, especially, have that lore behind them. You can start as a fish out of water, but only until you run into another Quincy who can induct you into the rest of the Clans. That's, to be fair, an interesting story in its own right, but it's not the same as, say, a man suddenly thrown into a world he knows nothing about and no genetic link to anyone else. The organizations are still there to join, but it doesn't run in your blood.
I wholeheartedly disagree with the idea that Mortals are simply snowflakes with nothing else redeemable about them. Unfortunately, that's also not something that can be disproven or proven. Let's move away from that kind of talk, shall we?
Also, I do agree with Jian that Power and Precision make a bit more sense than Strength and Spirit, especially in Bleach. The skill a character has with X seems to be far more of the determining factor in how effective they are, rather than being spiritually powerful or physically powerful. See: Any of the actually powerful characters in Bleach, going straight through Aizen to Ol' Yama, Ulquiorra, even good ol' Ichigo. This is, of course, in addition to the nice effect it had on min-maxing out one stat entirely.
That said, thanks to the examples we have already of how techs boost up certain things, Tokiyo's comparison guide of how stats stack up, I do agree that we can get by without hard effects unless that's how you'd really like to play, in which case, go for it.
As for creating techniques, or doing things, that are outside the boundary of what's possible, I don't see why it shouldn't be possible to have a few mech mods stay on whose purpose is to make sure that the flavor of your proposed ability actually matches what's fair, be an arbitrary judge when people do disagree and simply looking at stats and skills doesn't cut it. Especially now that that flavor is more important. And keep in mind that if you do think that something is unfair, that's when you can ask staff to take a look at something.