Post by Jian Oreachi on Aug 29, 2015 15:57:17 GMT -5
then that brings up the question of why the he staff is duking it out with members here instead of focusing their energy on the problem.
You don't like what people are saying?
Prove them wrong and get started on fixing this.
I promise, the unspoken vindication will be far sweeter than arguing with Colin.
because we need to address you malcontents at the SOURCE!
(i am joking)
(mostly not really)
-snip-
So, staff's saying that from now on they will be warning people if they get comments about them. Do we need to discuss what happens after the warning of that person keeps bothering the same player? What details do we need to be in control of? I'd imagine this would be dealt like any other Interpersonal issue used to be, only now we're all aware that the line's been drawn and it won't be ignored or tolerated anymore.
-snip-
this but way more than this. that is not all we are doing, that just helps. I am promising to be far more proactive at speaking out and stopping this stuff at the source, obviously it helps when people come to me, and the rest of staff. it helps a lot.
also defining behavior more strongly of course so that people know what is and isn't cool.
Before anyone says "then post/do it now":Having been here for 4 years I can attest that staff doing something without proper preparation will make things worse, not better.The site is a delicate ecosystem. Everything is connected. Its like the rainforest. You change one thing, even the tinniest thing, and the whole rainforest dies. You don't want the rainforest to die, do ya? /IT-crowd
then that brings up the question of why the he staff is duking it out with members here instead of focusing their energy on the problem.
You don't like what people are saying?
Prove them wrong and get started on fixing this.
I promise, the unspoken vindication will be far sweeter than arguing with Colin.
Staff are only human.
They have limits as to how many hours per day they can dedicate to this shit while trying to clean up the mess.
I mean, Robert's plot with his main character was completely annihilated by this. And he still bothers writing up a new policy? I could go into further detail, literally pulling out very intimate and private conversations that'd very easily defuse this. But staff are allowed god-damned privacy. And given what's going on in their personal lives?
Post by Colin Arascain on Aug 29, 2015 15:59:00 GMT -5
I promise, the unspoken vindication will be far sweeter than arguing with Colin.
I said my piece, and then I was accused of something. As far as I'm aware, I haven't done anything that even remotely resembles that thing, and it's damaging to my reputation. That's the only reason I'm arguing with anyone. I have no stake in the actual issue anymore.
Staff shouldn't get to accuse me of false and damaging shit because I'm being critical of them.
We're singing I believe that lovers should be chained together and thrown into a fire with their songs and letters, and left there to burn. Left there to burn in their arrogance.
Also, while there should be lines that are written down as things we can't cross, it's really going to be subjective. If you feel someone bothered you with a statement, and you ask them to stop making said type of statements about you, then that should be it. It doesn't matter if it officially crosses some "religion/political/racial" line or whatever, it crossed your personal one. If that player keeps doing it after being asked to stop, tell staff, and they will handle it.
That's pretty straightforward.
They are called "Protected Classes" here in the States. They are Race, Color, Religion, National Origin, Age (over 40), Sex, Pregnancy, Citizenship, Familial status, Disability, Veteran status and Genetic information. Some states also prevent discrimination against sexual orientation. And since are are on the internet, I'd also argue that personal relationships not explicitly brought out by those involved in them, shouldn't apply. (If you bully paks because she's my wife, for example.)
Before anyone says "then post/do it now":Having been here for 4 years I can attest that staff doing something without proper preparation will make things worse, not better.The site is a delicate ecosystem. Everything is connected. Its like the rainforest. You change one thing, even the tinniest thing, and the whole rainforest dies. You don't want the rainforest to die, do ya? /IT-crowd
then that brings up the question of why the he staff is duking it out with members here instead of focusing their energy on the problem.You don't like what people are saying?Prove them wrong and get started on fixing this.I promise, the unspoken vindication will be far sweeter than arguing with Colin.
Staff are only human.They have limits as to how many hours per day they can dedicate to this shit while trying to clean up the mess.I mean, Robert's plot with his main character was completely annihilated by this. And he still bothers writing up a new policy? I could go into further detail, literally pulling out very intimate and private conversations that'd very easily defuse this. But staff are allowed god-damned privacy. And given what's going on in their personal lives?
A valid point, and one that I was taking for granted.
Staff are still human, and yeah they are entitled to mistakes.
But, they're also STAFF.
That's a position of authority.
With a single click of the mouse, they can ban, delete posts, and even view IP addresses. That's a lot of power, and with that power comes responsibility. If Staff is fucking up, then members of the site have the right to hold them responsible for it. Should staff then be forced to divulge every aspect of their life to us because of this? No. But staff signs up for dealing with shit when they applied. If they don't like it, they have the choice to leave.
Until then, if people are unsatisfied with their work, they should hear about it, and change it.
Post by Jian Oreachi on Aug 29, 2015 16:15:38 GMT -5
People being unsatisfied isn't the same as people being right, a lot of harassment has been disguised as professional criticism, so I only agree with you up to a point. The customer, is of course, not always right, and I don't think a sane person would ever dispute that. There is a line on this, and 'take it or leave' is not the line.
Post by Jian Oreachi on Aug 29, 2015 16:20:13 GMT -5
This is not really the solution thread although I am going to dutifully read anything anyone posts about this, so don't be afraid to pipe up if you have something to add to this. This place is just for everyone to know it's a thing and then let them say how they feel on the matter. Once feelings cool, a gif-less formal invitions of suggestions may be able to take place. Not that we would stop anyone from trying on their own.
Look, I'm not trying to be uncooperative, or start a "Staffers are the DEVIL" thread here.
But this thread seems to be an open forum for thoughts and suggestions, and once again I wanna make sure I get the point I want across.
If you really wanna fix things in regards to fostering a more accepting community, you can't just approach this with a "I'll deal with this as it comes along!" attitude. You need to talk to people, understand what they want to happen, make compromises if needed, tell everyone what you are doing, and then follow through. I get that staff is human. If this position is too much, please do yourself a favor and leave! I won't judge you, I've been there. But if you earnestly wanna help, and you think you can handle the crap you'll get, then do so.
If it works, I'll be the first to shake your hand.
@jian Yes, people as individuals aren't always right. But this isn't about individuals. This is about making a better place for others on this site. We as members are a part of that, and though of course you can't satisfy everyone, you can at least get to a point where we can all agree to a compromise.
People being unsatisfied isn't the same as people being right, a lot of harassment has been disguised as professional criticism, so I only agree with you up to a point. The customer, is of course, not always right, and I don't think a sane person would ever dispute that. There is a line on this, and 'take it or leave' is not the line.
Constructive criticism is that which can make you better by following it. But its worthless if you throw out whatever it is your doing right trying to become a better person. And worthless if its put alongside a bunch of blind hate for the sake of making the person feel worse. And worthless if the only alternative ever given on a site is "pass" or "yes" or "you got it".
If someone serves you a delicious avocado and salmon soup and they got the fish just right, you shouldn't just tell them "oh god your soup is fucking awful" because you hate avocado and said avocado is spoiled. Tell them the avocado spoiled. And tell them the fish is good. And you'll be way more likely to more quickly and happily receive more of said fish (without the avocado). Otherwise they might abandon the idea altogether and cook chicken instead, leaving you without the fish.
Post by Jian Oreachi on Aug 29, 2015 16:27:18 GMT -5
No I know, don't take my push back on that point as me assuming what you've said isn't correct or helpful, it is. I just want to clarify where I see the line on how much abuse staff should take which is none, but we're open to real criticism. or I am, i am only one man among many and do not presume to speak for the collective.
Our attitude is not that we will simply deal with this as it comes, I apologize if I've given that impression.
You need to talk to people, understand what they want to happen, make compromises if needed, tell everyone what you are doing, and then follow through.
That's what this is for, among other things. Was that not clear?
im hoping it hasn't fallen out of mind that we're also expecting a public explanation from tokiyo on his (and this is super duper key here) also public accusations against colin
this isn't a demand, its just a reminder. i understand it's only been about an hour but im fully expecting to see this out in the public to clear the air here
No, this looks like a Spider-Man thread in the making.
On a serious note, no. This thread looks like another staff announcement declaring your intentions to fix a problem. Which is a start, like I've said. But if we wanna have an open discussion with suggestions and a plan, let's make a thread for that. Not now. Not five minutes from now. But soon.
also jian, get yourself a fucking beer or something man. You sound exhausted.
Bri was not the first victim of this shit, nor will she be the last.
While I was shocked to see her go so suddenly, I wasn't surprised. The woman got a lot of flack over the last year and even her patience had to end somewhere. She, like others, filed official complaints and had the same end result;
Nothing happened.
I have done the same thing and had very little to nothing to come of the few times I have had to report something to staff-- particularly when it was a case of sexual harassment across multiple members by someone who should have had the hammer dropped on them the first time something was said.
It was when that person came back a third time that something was done-- and it was blamed on a former staff member for nothing having been done prior.
That has got to stop.
If someone has grown toxic to the community, refuses to follow the rules, and believes they are above said rules because they are staff, are friends with staff, or have a lot of ties to peoples' stories IC?
Take care of it. If warnings, cbox bans, post mods, and temp bans do not work?
Drop the fucking hammer and stop hiding behind stress/anxiety/nerd culture's "we can't punish someone, it might hurt their feelings/make us look bad!" for why you don't take action.
If you can't do it? Leave staff and find someone who can.
That said.
Shit that isn't on the site should not be taken into account. If someone from the site is harassing you offsite? Block their ass and delete them. Congrats. Problem solved. It's easy to do and I can teach anyone who needs help how to do it.
If the harassment extends on to the site? Document. Screenshots, logs, etc. Date and time everything and hold on to it. Send it to staff if it becomes an issue.
Make sure, when you are talking to staff, you come in with a plan. What are you coming to them for, and what do you want the resolution to be? Do you want someone banned? why and are their actions enough to justify it? If not, what do you want and what are YOU as the player planning to do to help yourself to handle future conflict?
It's staff's job to keep the site running smoothly.
It's the player base's job to be proactive and quit tolerating bullfuckery.
Eh, this cycle happened sooner than before or maybe I've just been MIA. Whatever the reason but if you need some new staff.
*raises hand* Kappa. I have the experience.
Motonabe Kai: Well let me be Titus for a second, "Y u no lol?" "Hey you, out there all alone..." Avatar by Cheesewoo. He does commissions! Flick him a PM on Deviantart.
Bri was not the first victim of this shit, nor will she be the last.
While I was shocked to see her go so suddenly, I wasn't surprised. The woman got a lot of flack over the last year and even her patience had to end somewhere. She, like others, filed official complaints and had the same end result;
Nothing happened.
I have done the same thing and had very little to nothing to come of the few times I have had to report something to staff-- particularly when it was a case of sexual harassment across multiple members by someone who should have had the hammer dropped on them the first time something was said.
It was when that person came back a third time that something was done-- and it was blamed on a former staff member for nothing having been done prior.
That has got to stop.
If someone has grown toxic to the community, refuses to follow the rules, and believes they are above said rules because they are staff, are friends with staff, or have a lot of ties to peoples' stories IC?
Take care of it. If warnings, cbox bans, post mods, and temp bans do not work?
Drop the fucking hammer and stop hiding behind stress/anxiety/nerd culture's "we can't punish someone, it might hurt their feelings/make us look bad!" for why you don't take action.
If you can't do it? Leave staff and find someone who can.
That said.
Shit that isn't on the site should not be taken into account. If someone from the site is harassing you offsite? Block their ass and delete them. Congrats. Problem solved. It's easy to do and I can teach anyone who needs help how to do it.
If the harassment extends on to the site? Document. Screenshots, logs, etc. Date and time everything and hold on to it. Send it to staff if it becomes an issue.
Make sure, when you are talking to staff, you come in with a plan. What are you coming to them for, and what do you want the resolution to be? Do you want someone banned? why and are their actions enough to justify it? If not, what do you want and what are YOU as the player planning to do to help yourself to handle future conflict?
It's staff's job to keep the site running smoothly.
It's the player base's job to be proactive and quit tolerating bullfuckery.
Motonabe Kai: Well let me be Titus for a second, "Y u no lol?" "Hey you, out there all alone..." Avatar by Cheesewoo. He does commissions! Flick him a PM on Deviantart.