Post by Jian Oreachi on Aug 29, 2015 23:23:39 GMT -5
So, I'm almost certain this thread has run its course with el hombre arana entering the frey and homestuck gifs to take us home. We'll be getting to work on this and we'll have future threads for more discussion once we have some more to show. If you have anything else to say, of course doesn't hesitate I'll still be crawling through with a fine-tooth comb but also feel free to reach me on skype, or through private message. My Skype is on my profile.
Post by this is Tetsu on Aug 29, 2015 23:29:33 GMT -5
note: Read about 3 pages of this before noticing a rather circular pattern.
I really wish I had an answer to this mess but I don't. I should. I've never been 'seriously' bullied myself but my brother was ruthlessly bullied in middle school and was suspended when forced to physically defend himself after having rocks thrown at him, resulting in a gigantic retaliation from mama bear and other parents who had similar issues. I guess from my perspective, not just staff, but myself and everyone else as well are to blame. If the people who should take action aren't then there's nothing wrong with doing it yourself. When everyone is pointing the finger everyone is to blame. I should have done the right thing. Sorry I didn't.
Now on to actually maybe kinda giving a probably really iffy idea as to solve the problem. Really I think it comes down to privacy things. I believe issues like this should be brought up PUBLICLY. Notice how, once the site is actually brought into this, the uproar is huge. Now that doesn't mean we should recklessly assume everything is wrong and certainly sometimes privacy is more comfortable but if things get as bad as they can (and have), telling the public is your best bet. I wouldn't be apposed to a site thread where people can publicly say they're being harassed or have issues with other players that go way beyond the normal. Fortunately I've never had the displeasure of being bullied or harassed here and I think(or hope) at most I've only been a little annoying towards certain members hoping to thread or bugging for a post, I know I've annoyed Paks for posts at inopportune times when I was still trying Tetsuya out and I may have given TK a headache but yeah. Also, said method would force staff to address all issues individually since they're being brought up in the public eye and nobody can 'pretend it didn't happen or they forgot'. I don't know why there are apostrophes there.
That's about all I can say at the moment and hope it helps. Also I felt the need to vent at the whole back and forth thing cause for the first 3 pages at least, it was more barking at each other over stuff we should all be apologizing for.
edit: Sorry after posting I reread this and noticed that I may have implied that some points of harassment are 'normal' and implied they are acceptable. They aren't. I was trying to convey that in a situation where, if you tell someone to stop repeatedly, and they don't. Or things start of as something you see as playful or a joke, and they turn into something serious. You should have someplace to go. Despite the bullshit, I do see this site community has heavily competent and supportive when as a collective unit (alone you guys are gigantic assholes but that's for another day).
Lastly since I'm editing this although I'm not staff I do want to state that my pms are open to anybody who has an issue. I don't believe I can be of much help in situations like this but I'll at least rip somebody a new asshole and hopefully it doesn't get me in trouble.
I'm going to go with a massive hell no for that solution. It's from a good place with good intentions-- but that's going to create a hotbed of hostility and backstabbing the likes of which would make any proper Drow player from D&D crap their pants in awe of.
You're also forcing players to out their issues, in public, to people who may very well take advantage of said issue to intentionally blackmail, manipulate, or otherwise use against them-- and some of the issues people have pertain to RL matters that are frankly no one's fucking business but their own, and then staff's when another individual continues setting that off when asked to stop.
Privacy is a very real thing and is supposed to be there for a reason.
Half a moot point due to there being three people, minimum, involved in conflict (Person A, Staff Member, and Person B) but we all know it ends up an actual shit show due to multiple people from Person A's group and Person B's group getting involved.
Having it be private and handled privately is a proper manner of dealing with it.
The issue we're having is it being handled in a timely manner, if at all, rather than the manner in which our issues are being seen/heard/etc by Staff.
Again, good intentions, but that way leaves way too much open and violates a lot of privacy.
I don't check BG for one day and ya'll flip your shit and burn half the house down.
On a more serious note though, I'll be working significantly fewer hours come Sept., so if Staff needs any help cracking down on this, ya'll know where to find me.
Post by this is Tetsu on Aug 30, 2015 0:25:19 GMT -5
Yeah I figured as much about an idea I thought up while irritated.
I always assume you guys are super awesome good people since I rarely see your shitty sides but getting the ball rolling in the mass brainstorming plethora of bad ideas until something good comes up is important.
Human beings have flaws, and put a bunch in one place and you'll get the clash and nasty sides sooner or later.
It's more about how we can handle, diffuse, and also resolve conflict that matters more than who's the biggest shithead on the forum who needs the ban hammer.
Post by Jian Oreachi on Aug 30, 2015 0:52:44 GMT -5
I swear...
I don't check BG for one day and ya'll flip your shit and burn half the house down.
On a more serious note though, I'll be working significantly fewer hours come Sept., so if Staff needs any help cracking down on this, ya'll know where to find me.
This is such a common reaction I've never understood. The sky is not falling, we'll all talk, some of it will be upset, and we'll figure it out and move forward.
The second part has more to do with my desire to help out than anything else, but was also about 15% joking. I've been up for 36ish hours- humor and sarcasm are about the only things keeping me going.
Alright, after consideration and thought put into what I can bring to this discussion, I'm going to offer what my own personal system was as Owner/Admin/Moderator from several past RPs. Some of the people on BG know how I operated and they know I didn't relent in this regard. (Even though I would fight/argue over it if I felt it unfair, I would still do my job even if it caused issues within the community or in my personal life. That is what you have to do as Staff or you do not need to be there at all.)
Kire's Three-Technically-Four Strike Rule
Strike One: Written warning. Clear, concise, and simple. You state what was done wrong, you explain why it was unacceptable and how it conflicts with the rules, and you let them know what happens from that point forward. End of story.
Strike Two: Written Warning the Second. Clear, concise, and simple. You reiterate what behavior was unacceptable, why, and repeat what rules it broke and the consequences that are coming forth. This is where post moderation comes into play for whatever amount of time is deemed acceptable for the offenses committed. A clear cut warning of what will come should the behavior persist is to be offered in no uncertain terms. Temporary cbox ban may also be included on this as well.
Strike Three: Final written warning. Clear, concise, and simple. Again, reiterating what was done wrong, what rules it broke, and how this has approached the point in which they are being notified that this is their final warning. Further misbehaving or antagonism on their end will result in a ban from the forums. Be it temporary for x months or a permanent ban, that's the end of it. These consequences include a chatbox ban, post moderation, the written warning, and potentially a week to two week long temporary ban from the site.
Final Strike: Ban. Be it temporary ban for 3+ months to a full on temporary ban from the forum as a whole. The individual has been warned. They have been asked, politely, and firmly to correct their actions and behaviors on the forum, cbox, etc. They chose to misbehave and continue to be a toxic influence on the site and the community as a whole-- and they have used up their chances. It's time to go and the door is closed as they're shoved out the door as an unwelcome guest.
What happens after the ban, be it temporary for the months long variety, is entirely up to staff members and the community as a whole-- as well as the individual in question being able to prove they have turned a new leaf over, got their head out their asses, etc.
--
This rule set is only good as the rules that are put into place regarding behavior of those in the community-- staff and player alike. No one is exempt from this. Not the Owner of the site, not the Administrators or Mods.
No one.
This is the part where we're all on the same level.
Staff, you are the enforcers of the rules; and you must be the ones to demonstrate them as well. If you feel this is something you can't do? I suggest finding and training a replacement and stepping down rather quickly. Your players are coming to you with an issue; it is your job to address it and to find a way to make things as right as possible when personalities clash.
Players, you must enforce and demonstrate them yourselves; adhering to the rules can be tough-- I know I get the urge to just fucking shred a motherfucker who's really under my skin and needs to get schooled. But, I also know that's not always the right thing to do, even if it would be more satisfying in the long run. Uphold the rules for your home ground and hold each other to the standards you hold yourselves and your staff members.
Players, you are also responsible for taking action for yourselves. This means taking the initiative to document logs, time stamps, and have your shit together when you make your report to staff. This means having a plan of action, something you need from them that only they can do to help the situation you're in. If it isn't to the point you need staff intervention and can resolve it by trying to work it out with the other person, or, worse case scenario, blocking them from contacting you completely?
Come talk to staff with the above information.
Not only are you protecting yourself and showing proactive attempts at conflict resolution on your own time, but you're offering staff something more than just "this sucks, do something."
Kire, no offense but didn't you leave the site bc being the string that connects community and staff was bad for your health? Seriously, why are you doing this to yourself xD
this ain't for the best my reputation's never been worse, so you must like me for me we can't make any promises now, can we, babe?
Post by Colin Arascain on Aug 30, 2015 6:43:45 GMT -5
mfw the forum actually has a warning point system built in and i pushed tokiyo to use it in a manner like this back around when he took up the ip reins and delved into the acp to understand the technicalities of it
i tried, yo ._.
but non-shitposty supertired realtalk: an important thing to add here is that warnings 'expire' after a while of good behaviour, otherwise pretty much everyone will get banned eventually, leaving paks and cheshire to write adorable kittyhollow threads until the end of time
Kire, no offense but didn't you leave the site bc being the string that connects community and staff was bad for your health? Seriously, why are you doing this to yourself xD
Auspisticism is a fucking curse and I am its eternal bitch. Also masochism!
It was bad for my health, but y'know what, let's keep going and see if this time changes anything.